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 Post subject: Re: #234 Hades12 vs opex
Post #21 Posted: Sat Mar 08, 2014 7:43 am 
Lives with ko

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[go]$$Wcm22
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . O . O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . X X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . X . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . 2 . X . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


that was a nice reduction move. The only good thing is I should end with sente to fix my right side group.

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 Post subject: Re: #234 Hades12 vs opex
Post #22 Posted: Sat Mar 08, 2014 9:38 am 
Lives with ko
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Universal go server handle: opex
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm24
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . O . O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . X X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . X . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Is there another move?

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 Post subject: Re: #234 Hades12 vs opex
Post #23 Posted: Sat Mar 08, 2014 10:46 am 
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Posts: 157
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm24
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . O . O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . X X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . X . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


im planning on leaning to get a wall with this middle gam joseki
And white ends in gote
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm24
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . O . O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . X X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 1 . W. . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 3 2 9 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 7 5 6 0 . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . O 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 8 . . . . . , . X . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

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 Post subject: Re: #234 Hades12 vs opex
Post #24 Posted: Sat Mar 08, 2014 1:03 pm 
Lives in sente
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I feel like black is missing something big here by allowing white to so easily strengthen his group.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm24 What I would play
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . O . O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . X X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . a . . . X X . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . 4 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 1 3 . z . . . . . . . e d . b . . |
$$ | . . . . . y . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . x . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . O . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . 6 . . , . X . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . c . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


This still expands the bottom of the board. It is not as large as the potential black is shooting for, but I think black has big problems with the sequence he plans.

The white group on the left and the right are both not alive locally and black takes good profit on the bottom while strengthening his group on the top left. Without another move by white black can start to surround the white group and attack it very hashly with moves like 'x', 'y', or 'z'. If white chooses to defend then there are lots of great points for black to take, like 'a' to threaten to seal in the corner and reduce the top. If white responds to 'a' then 'b' and 'c' are a sort of miai for the security of white's group. If black grabs 'b' then white has to make a base at 'c' allowing black to expand his framework with moves like 'd' and 'e'.

And if white decides not to make his base in the corner then black has the dream of every go player: Two weak groups to attack within his influence.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm24 How black wants to play
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . O . O O O . |
$$ | . a . O . . . . . , . . . . X X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . |
$$ | . . B . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . B . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X X . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . X . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


This definitely builds the bottom in a big way. The spacing of the stones seems about right and there is no doubt that black will get something big on the bottom. However, look at the whole board. What has happened to the two black stones in the top left? The star point stone is now only one point away from white thickness and the other is three spaces from it. A move by white at 'a' secures corner territory while now threatening to severely attack the two stones. After this I'd feel very unsure as black. How do I help my two stones? Sure, the aji of the 6-3 stone can be used for a 3-3 invasion reduction, but after that what will become of the two stones on the outside? And if I surrender them then white got to take fifth line territory on the left as I grabbed a seventh line framework on the bottom. So black will need to run. And as he runs white will build the top side, reduce the bottom side, or, quite likely, both.

The bottom is not territory. It is only a moyo. If white wanted to he could invade and live on the bottom. The black stones on the right are very thin. There is a lot of aji, but to do that immediately would of course be too soon. As black sealed white in his outside potential would be enormous and white's two stones on the right would cry in agony at the growing thickness of black's wall. But it is still not territory, even if white won't reduce or invade immediately.

I feel like black is allowing white to live here quite easily when he could have made it difficult.

_________________
"You have to walk before you can run. Black 1 was a walking move.
I blushed inwardly to recall the ignorant thoughts that had gone through
my mind before, when I had not realized the true worth of Black 1."

-Kageyama Toshiro on proper moves


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 Post subject: Re: #234 Hades12 vs opex
Post #25 Posted: Sat Mar 08, 2014 3:49 pm 
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm26
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . O . O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . X X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 1 X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . X . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Tough move. I very much wanted to push up and cut, but starting a fight when so many black stones are around is kinda risky. So i'll be safe here

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Post #26 Posted: Sat Mar 08, 2014 4:11 pm 
Honinbo
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Hades12 wrote:
im planning on leaning to get a wall with this middle gam joseki
And white ends in gote
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wm24
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . O . O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . X X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 1 . W . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 3 2 9 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 7 5 6 0 . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . O 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 8 . . . . . , . X . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]
After :b29: atari and :w30: connects in Hades' variation above,
maybe B has other options:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . O . O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . X X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . X . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]
Maybe W also has other options:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . O . O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . X X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . O 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . X . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]

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 Post subject: Re: #234 Hades12 vs opex
Post #27 Posted: Sat Mar 08, 2014 7:34 pm 
Lives with ko

Posts: 157
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm26
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . O . O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . X X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 1 X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . O 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . X . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


if this works I think I'll play the slide at b16 and if he falls back then stabilize the right, r9.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm26
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 5 . . O . . . . . . . O . O O O . |
$$ | . 4 . O . . . . . , . . . . X X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 8 . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 . . |
$$ | . . O . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X 2 . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . X . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

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 Post subject: Re: #234 Hades12 vs opex
Post #28 Posted: Sun Mar 09, 2014 1:16 am 
Lives with ko
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Posts: 201
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Universal go server handle: opex
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm28
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . O . O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . X X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . X . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I thought this :b27: was joseki. So I can play :w28: and tenuki.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm27
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . O . O O O . |
$$ | . 4 . O . . . . . , . . . . X X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . O . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . X . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

But well.. Let's not give him perfect wall first.

Trigger:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm28
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . O . O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . X X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 3 1 2 . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . X . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

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 Post subject: Re: #234 Hades12 vs opex
Post #29 Posted: Sun Mar 09, 2014 4:10 pm 
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm28
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . O . O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . X X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 1 2 . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . X . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

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 Post subject: Re: #234 Hades12 vs opex
Post #30 Posted: Sun Mar 09, 2014 4:12 pm 
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm28
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . O . O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . X X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 3 1 2 . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . X . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

after thinking about it all day, I decided to connect with my last move. I chose this variation to make it harder for white to seperate my groups.

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 Post subject: Re: #234 Hades12 vs opex
Post #31 Posted: Mon Mar 10, 2014 3:43 am 
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Universal go server handle: opex
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm32
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . O . O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . X X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 1 . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . X . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Safety first. This move is important for black's group too in case it somehow gets cut off, so can't delay

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Post #32 Posted: Mon Mar 10, 2014 5:26 am 
Honinbo
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Hmm, :w32: = :wc: seems a big thank-you move for B.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . O . O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . X X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . W 1 X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . X . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

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 Post subject: Re: #234 Hades12 vs opex
Post #33 Posted: Mon Mar 10, 2014 10:29 am 
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm32
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . O . O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . X X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . a b . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 1 2 X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . X . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


thought about moves at a b and a move at r9

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 Post subject: Re: #234 Hades12 vs opex
Post #34 Posted: Mon Mar 10, 2014 11:28 am 
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Universal go server handle: opex
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm34
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . O . O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . X X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . X . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

alive...

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 Post subject: Re: #234 Hades12 vs opex
Post #35 Posted: Mon Mar 10, 2014 6:42 pm 
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm34
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . O . O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . X X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . X . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


seems good.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm34
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . O . O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . X X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X X . . . . . a . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . X . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Wanted to play here but at least r9 starts an attack on whites corner.
And I'll make my moyo larger soon.

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 Post subject: Re: #234 Hades12 vs opex
Post #36 Posted: Mon Mar 10, 2014 10:04 pm 
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For observers:
so now feels like a good time to assess the board. White has about twelve points in the top right and twelve points on the left. With Komi this comes to thirty. The UL corner is a possible fifteen but he needs another move. The BR corner is hard to say. Black has about ten points on the right side and maybe ten in the corner. So blacks behind in solid points. However the framework on the bottom feels like it gives black the edge. I feel ahead and in control. Also, white needs to take care of the bottom right stones.

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Post #37 Posted: Tue Mar 11, 2014 12:26 am 
Honinbo
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Hades12 wrote:
The UL corner is a possible fifteen but he needs another move.
Maybe Hades is not looking at the weaknesses in his shapes.
:white: still has (a), followed by (b) -- or, the other way? -- to cut :black: into pieces:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wm34
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . O . O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . X X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . a . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . b . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . X . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]
Instead of :b35:, maybe B wanted something like :b1: :
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . O . O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . X X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . W . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . X . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ -----------------------------------------[/go]

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 Post subject: Re: #234 Hades12 vs opex
Post #38 Posted: Tue Mar 11, 2014 1:25 am 
Judan

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@hades

Why did you play 33? What continuation did you expect?

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Post #39 Posted: Tue Mar 11, 2014 1:37 am 
Judan

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@ Ed
EdLee wrote:
Hmm, :w32: = :wc: seems a big thank-you move for B.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . O . O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . X X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . W 1 X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . X . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Ed did you think of this diagram independently before hades? A thank you move is a bad move which your opponent is happy to answer, do you really think 32 is bad and 33 good? Who do you think the 1 2 exchange benefits?

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 Post subject: Re: #234 Hades12 vs opex
Post #40 Posted: Tue Mar 11, 2014 2:49 am 
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm36
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . O . O O O . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . X X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . X . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . X 1 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Okay, i'll take the corner then.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm36
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . O . O O O . |
$$ | . a . O . . . . . , . . . . X X X O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X X . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . b . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . X . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . X O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I can't decide whether to take the corner with a and ask black to connect or go ahed and cut him at b, try to force him to run and enclose top in the process..

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