Again, I like the theory, but the practice has a flaw: the pincer is too close, and allows white to counter-attack like this:

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[go]$$Bcm9
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . 3 . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 5 . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . 6 7 . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . @ . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

The marked stone is almost perfect position for white.

So I have to go back to the two other pincers. They are further away, and allow the black attack to build without giving white an easy way to counter-attack. For practical reasons mentioned earlier, I like the lower one. And for theoretical reasons, as Fwiffo said, it feels better to match a low stone with a low pincer.

Same move as last time. We press black down, and then we counterpincer, which will also be an extension from our previous move.

For now, I'm going to post a few interesting points I'm thinking about. After this, I'll give some of the whys and reasoning, and then later narrow it down to my actual move suggestion. TJ and Red, feel free to raise good and bad things about any of these moves.

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[go]$$Bc Move 9 - B:0 - W:0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . d . . . . . . . . . c . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . a . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . B . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . b . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

a: The instant, first thought. The bottom right, pincered stone is probably fine on its own. Not only was the pincer wide, it still has plenty of potential. This settles our top group for the moment (especially as it has a slide in one direction and extra space in the other), and removes the possiblity of a two-space jump from . The downside is, the development potential on the right is not huge for either side, as both sides are likely to get living groups there.

b: Have I mentioned that I find this joseki pattern interesting? The taisha, if properly executed, seems like it often makes the region small for both players afterwards. Alternatively, it can create a strong group for both sides, as it did in my Malkovich game. The downsides: The marked black stone may make a positive result impossible, and this seems lower priority since the white stone has attachments and such if necessary. Red's move is probably better than this.

c: Changes directions. May give black a chunk of the right side larger than they would get, otherwise, while taking more of the corner or top. This is often a good idea if the top has more potential than the right. As much of the right side is low, this may be the case. 'c' seems to work well with our top left stone, especially if we get the enclosure later. The downsides: Gives white a move like R12, resolving many of their local problems.

d: I like points! Removes a lot of issues in our corner, and makes stuff like 'c' bigger. We could consider taking this enclosure, then playing on the top or right dependent on where black plays. The downside: tenukis from aggression, letting black follow up as harshly as they can find.

While Red's idea seems useful and strong, these are the alternatives I'm considering. I'll post back when I've made up my mind. If this sort of open communication among soldiers is against the spirit of the game, let me know and I'll knock it off. Obviously, Topazg can't sway me on these until I've locked in my vote, or it would just be him playing. =)

I like the idea of pressing black down and then counterpincering. Since that has already been suggested I'd like to steal Chew's a) (R11) as my suggestion, since I think creating a base for our own group while applying some pressure to black R8 is very important. I can not comment on the taisha, since my knowledge of it is so poor. Of other suggestions by Chew I like d) better than c), but I have no problem with either - other than that I feel dealing with the right side is more urgent.

Nice thoughts, it's looking good. However, I'd really like to see some more continuations. Firstly:

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[go]$$Wcm10 Move 10 other options
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . B . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . a . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . b . O . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . c . X d . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

These are also very typical in this sort of shape. Can we all have a look at those before deciding on our final choices

Also, before I accept the press, please can we have a continuation after this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Wcm10 Move 10 press continuation
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 . B . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . 3 1 , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . 4 . 2 X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

The reason I ask, is we are sooo thin in the lower right that this could get very sticky. It's possible y'all have a fun spicy plan to handle it, but I can't see one of the top of my head. I want thoughts and global plans if possible

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Wcm10 Move 10 press continuation
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 8 . B . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . 5 3 1 , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . 6 4 . 2 X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

We can get further out first. We give up some profit in the bottom right, but after our group is safe on the bottom, we can look forward to a double approach on the top. No matter what we do, we're not going to get a locally good result somewhere, since we allowed for the double pincer ...

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Bc Move 9 - B:0 - W:0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . d . . . . . . . . . c . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . a . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . B . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . e . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . f . O . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . b . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . h . X g . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

In reverse alphabetical order:
h: Changes direction. However, the black stones on both side are low. This isn't the fastest place for development.
g: This is the fastest way to settle in the corner. However, even if black gets another stone in the area, our stone has options.
f: Let's have a look.

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[go]$$Bc Move 9 - B:0 - W:0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . W 2 O . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , 1 . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . 3 . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I'm not that big on this option. It seems like something like this is unlikely to turn out well. While there are certainly variations, it seems unlikely that we'll stabilize enough to strongly counterattack before B is also stable.

e:

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[go]$$Wc Move 9 - B:0 - W:0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . B . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

After the exchange of 1 for 2, I can't see a sufficiently compensating attack on the bottom right black stone. I am concerned that, after we force B to settle on both sides, we could end up on dame, with our without life.
d:

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[go]$$Bc Move 9 - B:0 - W:0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . W . . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . B . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

This option is good, but slow. Forces black to take a good point on top, which also makes a double-approach less appealing.
c: One of my favorites.

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[go]$$Bc Move 9 - B:0 - W:0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . W . 4 2 . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X 3 . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . a . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . a . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . B . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

This isn't bad, but it may help B solidify the right side too much. Let's look at other alternatives.
b: As previously mentioned, I like this move, but am concerned that the marked black stone is close enough to disrupt its effectiveness.
a: Simple, stable. If B falls back defensively, we get the chance to make our own big move on top.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Bc Move 9 - B:0 - W:0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . c . . . . . . . . . 1 . . b . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . 2 . . . . . X . a . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . W . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 . B . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 8 . 6 . 4 O . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , 3 . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . 9 . 5 . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I like this move, because it pressure the black groups on both sides. It seems likely that we're going to get to get to attack either the marked black stone or the top right corner, depending on where B defends. If we play all of a sequence like this, it seems we end up more efficient. We have thickness, our top left is as big as anything black has, and our stability is just fine. While this followup is pie in the sky, it demonstrates that in hte opening, keeping stable groups helps to make better followups available. For example, when black's 1 makes the top look more appealing to them, we get to deny it because our group below is stable for the moment. Similarly, stabilizing our right group means that we can do what is required below, while worrying less about hurting the group above. It's not flawless, but I think that currently, taking this move is the best option I see.

I choose R10.

Do you mean R11?

That was actually my suggestion.

Whoops, sorry. I forgot that that one was taken. Perhaps I should not try to make my moves while I have a headache and don't feel great.

Having embarassed myself, I shall simply congratulate you on what I think is good judgement, and take my other choice, O17, instead. This lets us focus on making a big top. If we get a big top and stabilize either stone on the right side, I feel like we can be content. O17 works well with the majority of the rest of our stones.

I'm really not keen on this. I was hoping that the continuation request would show some of your thoughts that perhaps I hadn't considered, but even the final position looks really difficult for White to handle to me. For example, if White tenukis:

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[go]$$Bcm19 Move 19 - B:0 - W:0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . 3 . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 2 O . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . O O O 1 . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . X X . X X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

White is just in so much trouble - it's a complete disaster. Of course, White won't tenuki, but we're going to have a group running away on dame while Black's picking up all his points on the bottom. I think White will quickly fall behind here.

Actually, I quite like this idea. I want White to develop the top, and this will help, whilst at the same time treating everything lightly. There's the 3-3 in the top right still open, and still not yet any decisions made on the appropriate followup in the lower right. My concern, and the reason I chose not to go for it, is the ability for Black to attack R14 while gaining stability on the right side, which has the knock on effect of enabling Black to start attacking R5. It feels like a chain of events which favours Black to me, so I'm deciding against it. Was very tempted though!

Ok, we're going with this one. Firstly, it leaves O17 as a much more severe attack now, and gives White some really good prospects on the top and upper right. Secondly, it destabilises Black's pincering stone nicely. If Black has to worry about that stone, he can't attack either White stone properly, which means it indirectly helps R5 to keep off the hook for now. If Black jumps out, I think White needs to really think about the lower right, and I encourage a broad range of options to be considered with regards to the best way to do this (for example, see some of my last suggestions, and both chew's taisha and red's press are obviously also typical shapes - that gives 6 local moves to consider without including any possible tenuki based ideas).

Please can we include variations in most of our suggestions, including a brief summary of why we like the end result? It makes it much easier to know why the move suggestion is being made

This was the first move I wouldn't have personally chosen or played in this given situation. There are a few reasons for this.

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[go]$$Bcm9 Move 9 - B:0 - W:0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . a . . a . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . a . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . a . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . b . O . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . b . X b . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

For me, "a" represents aji and interesting points for the top right White stone, and "b" points do for the lower right stone. Now, 4-4 stones are naturally flexible, and both approaches and followups have a tendency of having a lower urgency to begin with. Particularly O17, R17 and R11 are all sort of miai points, and therefore they are relatively easy to leave for now. If Black defends the corner, we play R11, if Black plays R11, we either O17 or R17, that sort of thing. As a result, I feel that whole top right corner is relatively non-urgent.

The lower right however is a different kettle of fish. If Black gets a followup here, particularly moves such as Q5 (although R4 may be effective at a pinch now) it's much harder for White to find a good response that doesn't give Black good compensation. As a result, I really wanted to play there badly. I don't like jumping out or the press (for reasons given in red's response), and the contact at R3 seems rather aji-keshi, designed purely to settle in the corner:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Wcm10 Move 10 - B:0 - W:0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . 3 . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . 4 X 1 5 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I think Black can get a good result from this far too easily - for one thing, taking sente to play a move such as R11 himself.

A joseki I like (normally with the Black pincer high), was what I was really hoping to get the opportunity to play, but despite my subtle hints to look at the corner in greater detail, no-one actually seemed to consider any of those moves It plays out as follows:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Wcm10 Move 10 - B:0 - W:0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . B . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 8 3 0 a . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 2 O . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , 5 . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . 9 . . . 1 6 X 7 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

White can now settle in the corner with "a", and also has the beginnings of a good position at the bottom. The right side is still wide open, and the top right corner can be dealt with in a variety of ways. I was very pleased with this. However, look at the following:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Wcm12 Move 12 - B:0 - W:0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . c . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . B . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 8 3 0 a . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 2 O . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , 5 . . |
$$ | . . . . X . b . . 9 . . . 1 6 X 7 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

This looks awesome to me, although deciding between "b" and "c" after Black extends from White "a" is difficult for me to read out. If Black does jump out, this joseki gives him no bang for his buck, which means he's going to have to deviate. That's not hard for course, as is only one option, but anything else makes a base on the lower side very easy, and there's still a large amount of corner aji to reduce his territory later. If we can find this move, I'll feel White may be edging the upper hand, but until then I consider it a) even, and b) very volatile.

... Can you please show a diagram where white doesn't tenuki? Yours right now just shows that white would have to settle after the one point jump, which doesn't seem so bad given that black has zero eyes in the middle, and a double approach on the top right is imminent.

I very much dislike my team's approach to the fuseki thus far. I don't like how from the very beginning we've been trying to shake things up and play nonstandard fuseki (i.e. the 5-3 move two is a non-orthodox move). We claimed that we'd play a fluid style, foiling black's plans. Instead we seem to be playing an amateur version of amashi, and just gallivanting all over the board. We'll have to pay our due sometime. We're white; we have komi. We don't need to shake things up like this.

I'm unsure what you are asking exactly? If White doesn't tenuki, because of the thinness in the shape, it feels White will have to be running, and won't have time to turn and attack the right hand side stone. We can try to cap, but with the jump out Black is relatively strong. Something like this ?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Wcm18 Move 18 - B:0 - W:0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 3 O . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . O O O 2 . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . X X . X X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I agree we have a double approach looming in the top right, but the important move that makes that big is R11, and the initial press is unnecessary. Here, if White double approaches the top right, Black can carry on building up points at the bottom, and I don't see what White's compensation is. With the move we have selected, we still have that double approach to play, and we also have more options in the lower right than just pressing down.

I would like to see how we can continue from your diagram without creating a heavy group, but I can't work it out myself. It's possible you have simply read something better than me, but as you haven't displayed it, I can only go on my evaluation of the position you've presented and any alternatives to tenuki that are immediately obvious to me.

Also, in fairness, I can only go with the options I have, and my personal choice was none of the three

Of course, if Black jumps out, your variation is still playable. So if a viable attacking sequence can be put forward, it's still the direction we can take the game. If Black tenukis, for example to defend with O17, then your lean makes great sense as we can cap to great effect. However, because we don't know if we want that yet, playing it too soon simply feels like it restricts our options without any immediately obvious return.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Wcm18 Move 18 - B:0 - W:0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . O O O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . X X . X X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I was looking at the peep to settle our stones a bit. We don't have a good attack on these stones, but they do need to be kept in mind for later. However, I wanted the clarification for purely logical reasons. You did not show my sequence was bad (which I now feel it is. I didn't put much thought into the press.) You showed that tenuki after the sequence was bad.

On the whole, I don't really like how thinly we've been playing on the right side. This is very much not my style of play, which makes my suggestions useless in the fuseki here.

Ah, I apologise, I will try to be more clear about further explanations for rejecting moves in the future.

We do have that peep, but it feels like aji-keshi. Peeps because we are worried about our own safety always make me more uncomfortable than peeps that we may use to make the opponent heavy or steal eyeshape. Of course it will help fix our cut issues, but the cut doesn't work for Black anyway just yet, and if we ever hope to attack those stones we don't want to make them any thicker. I'd rather see what Black does in response first. Please have a look at my addendum on the last post - one sequence to aim at is as follows:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Bcm11 Move 11 - B:0 - W:0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 8 . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . 6 4 2 , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . 7 5 . 3 X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I'm genuinely not saying the press is inherently bad, but coupled with R11 later I think it will be. It's possible we could press and then cap, but as Black can play R11 himself it doesn't look like we can launch an attack that way.

FWIW, I don't consider our play on the right thin. To me, one stone is never thin, the worst it will be is aji, but a single stone is not committed. The idea of keeping them both alive is only one of the available options

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Bcm11 Move 11 - B:0 - W:0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . e . . . . . . . . . . b . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . a . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . o c . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . o d . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

A-E seem to be the choices in my mind... with c and d having the option of extending one more point to the left...

I think (e) is still premature... (a) would be my first choice...

Move A:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Bcm - B:0 - W:0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . b . O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . a . O . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Move B:

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[go]$$Bcm - B:0 - W:0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . 3 . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . 2 . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Move B is optimal if white takes the passive approach and tries to extend their current base... if they take the aggressive approach and play at then this move is not advantageous to black...

Move C:

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[go]$$Bcm - B:0 - W:0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 8 . O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 . 3 . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . 6 . 4 . 2 . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . 5 . . 1 . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Maybe something like this? But I just don't see it going as great as if black extended the pincer stone first....


I will have to get some sleep and think on a fresh mind...

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Bcm11 Move 11 - B:0 - W:0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . b . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . a . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

If we're going to play b (or a) we should exchange for first. White wouldn't slide into the corner if we played b directly; they would leave the corner open for invasion.

Kicking makes white over-concentrated, though I'm not sure it's the best move. The side stone or the lower right might need attention first.

I'm glad to see that Fwiffo is thinking about kicking. I think that it may be our best move because the slide underneath is sente for them.


I see lots of white internal chat AFTER the move. That is a sign of dissent in the ranks. Has Topazg resorted to floggings yet?

I am not sure white has to respond to your attachment that way... i think white can play B first instead and still be able to live on the side... putting black as a bigger disadvantage than if black played B first...

I tend to agree with Fwiffo.

This allows white to live comfortably:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Wcm10
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . 4 . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . 3 . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

whereas this cramps white:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Wcm10
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . 4 . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . a . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Now 'a' looks like sente to hurt the 3-stone white group.

Ultimately, the relevant issue is not so much whether white is comfy or not, it is whether or not we can afford to give up sente. Even with the better of the two moves, white can still play a series of forcing moves along the bottom:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Wcm14
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . 9 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . B . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , a 7 5 3 1 , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . 8 6 4 . 2 X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Maybe black can play 8 at 'a', but either way the lone black stone is unhappy. If it can claw its way out, perhaps it becomes a killer, but if not, it will scramble to live small in gote while white probably connects his two groups on top of it.