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Offline Redundant
 Post subject: Re: Teamovitch #1
Post #181 Posted: Sat Nov 20, 2010 10:45 pm 
Lives in sente
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Woops, didn't notice that the other two had already made suggestions.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm14 Move 14 - B:0 - W:0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 O . O . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . 2 X . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I'm gonna go with this. It does give up a big on the bottom, but makes a fist before we strike with 3. Chew's idea of the cap is good, but this mostly gets rid of the peep aji.
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Offline topazg
 Post subject: Re: Teamovitch #1
Post #182 Posted: Sun Nov 21, 2010 2:49 am 
Tengen
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm16 Move 16 - B:0 - W:0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . X . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Comments to follow ...
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Offline Jedo
 Post subject: Re: Teamovitch #1
Post #183 Posted: Sun Nov 21, 2010 12:13 pm 
Lives in gote
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black internal
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm16 Move 16 - B:0 - W:0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . c . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . a O . O . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . X . , b . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

White's move certainly leaves a lot of aji behind. What I'm wondering is, do we want to spoil a little of that and grab some free points, or should we leave it and just jump to the biggest move right away?

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Offline Joaz Banbeck
 Post subject: Re: Teamovitch #1
Post #184 Posted: Sun Nov 21, 2010 1:01 pm 
Judan
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Black internal chat:
As Jedo implies, now might be a good time to discuss strategy. For the last several moves, the proper place to play was indisputably around R8, and only the details were uncertain. Now the options are wide open. Some possible plans are:
1) Abandon the R8 stone, and take sente someplace else.
2) Attempt to fight our way our with R8
3) Sacrifice R8 for a successful reduction.
4) Attempt to live low with R8.
5) Take territory by threatening to rescue R8
6) Leave R8, play high-temp moves elsewhere, then come back.


More black internal chat:
What are your opinions on the score thus far? Are we ahead? Behind?

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Offline Jedo
 Post subject: Re: Teamovitch #1
Post #185 Posted: Sun Nov 21, 2010 8:51 pm 
Lives in gote
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Hmm not too many observer comments yet. I guess it's cause the game moves pretty slowly, but I feel like no one's watching :sad:

Regardless it's fun to play, so moving on:
suggestion
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm16 Move 16 - B:0 - W:0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . c . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . a O . O . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . X . , b . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

As I was saying before, these were the three main moves I was considering. If we tenuki from the local position, I think preventing a corner enclosure with c is the biggest move. The question is wether or not to play locally first. I think we should defintealy treat the pincer stone lightly, so I rejected trying to pull it out clumsily with any of these choices:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm16 Move 16 - B:0 - W:0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . c b . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . a . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . X . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Doing something like that doesn't make any sense. Something may come up later though, so the question is how much the aji is worth
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm16 Move 16 - B:0 - W:0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . d . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . c O . O b . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . X . , a . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Both the ab and cd exchanges get us profit at the cost of aji. However, I'm not really convinced that either of these are sente. White can tenuki to enclose the corner, and if we insist we can pull out our stone in gote.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm16 Move 16 - B:0 - W:0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 8 X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 8 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 6 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O 4 . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . X . , 2 . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I don't really think that any gain made here justifies letting white enclose the upper left. Furthermore, it's very unlikely the white will play the attachment move like this:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm16 Move 16 - B:0 - W:0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . X . 2 . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . X 1 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

This response prevents the attachment from being a very good move. And as for my other suggestion, I am fine with white pushing us along the fourth line all they want. So my suggestion:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm16 Move 16 - B:0 - W:0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . X . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

We take the biggest move on the board. After all, why play aji keshi when you could have it so much better

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"There are no limits. There are plateaus, but you must not stay there, you must go beyond them. If it kills you, it kills you. A man must constantly exceed his level." -- Bruce Lee
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Offline jts
 Post subject: Re: Teamovitch #1
Post #186 Posted: Sun Nov 21, 2010 8:57 pm 
Oza
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I'm watching. :white: :white:

This post by jts was liked by: Jedo
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Offline fwiffo
 Post subject: Re: Teamovitch #1
Post #187 Posted: Sun Nov 21, 2010 9:22 pm 
Gosei
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Black internal:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm16 Move 16 - B:0 - W:0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . c . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . d O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . a O . O . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . X . , b . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I agree with Jedo's three points, and would add d as a possibility for making use of the right side stone. However, I think it would be premature...

My instinct is to go with c, because hey, why not have four good sized corners? It's also a high-priority move based on basic opening theory.

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Offline Jordus
 Post subject: Re: Teamovitch #1
Post #188 Posted: Sun Nov 21, 2010 10:25 pm 
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Black Internal Chat
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm16 Move 16 - B:0 - W:0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . c . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . a . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . X . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . b . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


My first instinct is to try to run out with the lone black stone because that side is huge for white... if I ignore that, the biggest option to try to even the score is b... however, if black can play (c) for the corner and come out of the exchange with sente then that makes (b) even bigger.... so for now my instinct is to run at (a), my other play would be to play for the corner at (c)....

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Offline Joaz Banbeck
 Post subject: Re: Teamovitch #1
Post #189 Posted: Sun Nov 21, 2010 10:42 pm 
Judan
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fwiffo wrote:
Black internal:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm16 Move 16 - B:0 - W:0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . c . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . d O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . a O . O . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . X . , b . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


...

My instinct is to go with c, because hey, why not have four good sized corners? It's also a high-priority move based on basic opening theory.


@Fwiffo:
It is not clear if this is your formal suggestion. Anyway, Jedo has already chosen it.


@Jedo:
What do you plan after 17? This continuation looks easy for white.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm17
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 3 . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 2 1 . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . 4 , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . X . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


@Observers only:
I want someone to suggest C12.

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Offline fwiffo
 Post subject: Re: Teamovitch #1
Post #190 Posted: Sun Nov 21, 2010 10:51 pm 
Gosei
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No, that was just some discussion, not my suggestion. I misread Jedo's post, I didn't realize he had picked a move. I'll pick a move tomorrow.

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Offline Jedo
 Post subject: Re: Teamovitch #1
Post #191 Posted: Mon Nov 22, 2010 12:09 am 
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@joaz
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm17
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 3 . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 2 1 . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . 4 , . . 7 . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . X . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I was thinking this. I know it's simple, but I feel like playing this way puts us solidly ahead on points with good potential for growth/

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Offline Tamara
 Post subject: Re: Teamovitch #1
Post #192 Posted: Mon Nov 22, 2010 3:09 am 
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Watching with great interest! Loving the behind-the-scenes chat by both black and white. Trying to learn as much as I can, but realising how far I still have to go....

Thanks to both teams for putting so much effort into explaining your thinking on each move.
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Offline robinz
 Post subject: Re: Teamovitch #1
Post #193 Posted: Mon Nov 22, 2010 3:51 am 
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Yep, I'm watching too. I'm unlikely to comment much, as I am most unqualified to do so, but much enjoy all the behind-the-scenes discussion.
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Offline topazg
 Post subject: Re: Teamovitch #1
Post #194 Posted: Mon Nov 22, 2010 4:13 am 
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Observers:

I think I kind of covered the reasoning for this one in previous posts and responses to red / chew - if something doesn't make sense, please ask :)


Team chat:

Chew, going with it, attacking here seems a good plan to me. Red, I agree that the push isn't happy, and whilst it removes the aji, I don't think we have to. I would much rather leave M3 open for later, as that could be a really useful lower side point. TJ, I don't want to strengthen the stone we want to attack. We're walking a fine line, but your move is the sort of "resigning ourselves to having to settle our weak groups" move, and I think we can be more aggressive.

We have at least as much good aji left as Black does to work with (in both right corners and on the right side), and if Black lets this stone die White can make a lot of points already on the right. We don't feel ahead particularly though, the games feels very close to me.
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Offline fwiffo
 Post subject: Re: Teamovitch #1
Post #195 Posted: Mon Nov 22, 2010 7:45 am 
Gosei
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Black move suggestion:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm17 Move 17 - B:0 - W:0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . e c . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . d O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . a O . O . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . X . , b . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I went to bed thinking I would choose a. The idea is that I don't want to us to fall too far behind on influence, even though I think we have a route to victory with a territorial game. By contrast, b is just a points-making move and only really affects the local situation. And d, as I mentioned earlier, would be premature. So of all these, I like c the best, but Jedo already took it.

Eventually I settled on e as an alternative way to take the corner, which I think is the right direction of play. It puts off the decision of what to do with our side stone until more of the board is developed and we can have more information to decide with.

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Offline Jordus
 Post subject: Re: Teamovitch #1
Post #196 Posted: Mon Nov 22, 2010 9:24 am 
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Black Move suggestion
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm17 Move 17 - B:0 - W:0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . a b . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . X . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . 1 . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Jedo and fwiffo both chose corner moves (a and b) so I guess I will give Joaz something a little different to go with... if we play at :b17: then we gain a good amount of points... and have the option of either running with the lone black stone or taking the corner depending on whites move... either takes a good amount of points from white if they are successful... not to mention the top side is still open and whites left board position is very open to attack....

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Offline Joaz Banbeck
 Post subject: Re: Teamovitch #1
Post #197 Posted: Mon Nov 22, 2010 9:55 pm 
Judan
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@Jordus:
That was a typo, right? You meant L3, of course?


@Fwiffo:
Can you show me a sequence that guarantees us ending with sente?

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Offline fwiffo
 Post subject: Re: Teamovitch #1
Post #198 Posted: Mon Nov 22, 2010 10:55 pm 
Gosei
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No, not for my move, nor any of the others I've looked at. I don't know 5-4 joseki that well. I don't even know 3-4 joseki well enough to guarantee ending in sente.

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Offline Jordus
 Post subject: Re: Teamovitch #1
Post #199 Posted: Tue Nov 23, 2010 1:23 am 
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@Joaz
Yes... typo... :P though I don't k3 is all that bad of a typo compared to what it could have been :P This is what happens when you copy and paste from your own diagrams and don't check them...

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Offline gaius
 Post subject: Re: Teamovitch #1
Post #200 Posted: Tue Nov 23, 2010 7:49 am 
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My sealed move (hidden of course):
Why not play super-solid? This feels nice, the top right corner becomes pretty huge! If white tries to defend the top with something like 20, I happily sacrifice the one stone by playing 'a' and 'b', and then invade the top left. Even after that, there will still be some endgame aji due to :bc:! So I think white cannot play this slowly. Problem is, I don't see a particularly convincing alternative for white...
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm17 Move 16 - B:0 - W:0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X 3 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O 1 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . B . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . b O . O . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . X . , a . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Also,
I seriously doubt a recent comment by Joaz Banbeck... Locally speaking, why would black be unhappy about this? White is overconcentrated a lot; their initial 5-4 influence has been degraded to a little bit of measly territory at the side. What's more, black can consider :b7: now. If white doesn't respond, there's still a juicy invasion left at 'a'!
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 3 . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 2 1 . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . 4 , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . a . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . X . . |
$$ | . . 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . X . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

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