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Offline Joaz Banbeck
 Post subject: Re: Teamovitch #1
Post #221 Posted: Fri Nov 26, 2010 11:16 am 
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Hmmm... Something has gone wrong somewhere. Black team or white team, I cannot say. I thought that this was an overplay by white. Either Topazg has overlooked something or I have.

Ok, it is possible that his teammates gave him three terrible suggestions, and he had to choose the least worst. But I regard that as unlikely.

@teammates: This could be treacherous. Please analyze carefully.
I think that the first order of business is to decide if we want to kill it, or let it live and then profit by threatening it.

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Offline Jedo
 Post subject: Re: Teamovitch #1
Post #222 Posted: Fri Nov 26, 2010 12:19 pm 
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black suggestion
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm18 Move 18 - B:0 - W:0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . X . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . 1 . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Joaz makes a good point; while tenuki from the upper left makes sense, this move does seem a bit reckless with the aji of our pincer stone still floating around. Joaz asks if we want to kill it or let it live and make profit. As much as I would like to, killing doesn't really seem reasonable, but that doesn't mean we just have to let white live easy. My suggestion:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm18 Move 18 - B:0 - W:0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 O . O . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . X . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . O . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

This seems like a very useful forcing move. White can'r really tenuki without bad things happening:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm18 Move 18 - B:0 - W:0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O 0 X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 8 9 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 5 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 O 7 O . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . X 6 , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . 3 . . 1 . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

White may not play this way, but I think it's pretty certain that white will be giving us some serious local profit if he tenukis. And come to think of it, where will white's points come from? We will be far ahead in points. So let's assume white does respond:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm18 Move 18 - B:0 - W:0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 . 3 . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . 2 O . O . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . X . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . 4 . 1 . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


MY plan is something like this. We can always attach to the 53 stone in an emergency. The good thing though is that as we both run out, the aji of our pincer stone becomes more and more of a problem for white. And once again, we have our points, so the burden of proof will be on white. Since we have that pincer stone and potential eyespace in the corner, I think the while group will be weaker than ours, so the fight will be good for us.

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Offline Jordus
 Post subject: Re: Teamovitch #1
Post #223 Posted: Mon Nov 29, 2010 1:00 pm 
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Black Internal chat:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm19 - B:0 - W:0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , 1 . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . a . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . b . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . X . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . O . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


While playing in the bottom right seems to be the right thing to do since that corner group is in danger, I think playing for the top right corner will invoke white to make a response and still give black sente (not to mention Jedo already recommended the bottom right corner play)... Also I believe the bottom right corner group is not completely lost if white ignores and plays a move down there... For Now I am thinking of playing at :b19:, however (a) and (b) seem interesting to me....

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Offline fwiffo
 Post subject: Re: Teamovitch #1
Post #224 Posted: Tue Nov 30, 2010 7:58 am 
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OK, I'm back from vacation.

Black chat (I'll have a move suggestion later today):
My initial instinct is that white made an overplay. Jedo's move is the one that seems most obviously correct based on basic principles, and I suspect it is the correct move. But I'd like to come up with a good alternative.

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Offline Joaz Banbeck
 Post subject: Re: Teamovitch #1
Post #225 Posted: Tue Nov 30, 2010 9:08 am 
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fwiffo wrote:
...
Black chat ...:
My initial instinct is that white made an overplay. Jedo's move is the one that seems most obviously correct based on basic principles, and I suspect it is the correct move. But I'd like to come up with a good alternative.


I too suspect that Jedo's is best. I wanted to pincer originally, but we may be too low for a successful fight. As the proverb says, 'make fist before striking'. Sure, while we are making a fist, white can make an extension, but it is either a mere two spaces and small, or more than two spaces and subject to being split.

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Offline fwiffo
 Post subject: Re: Teamovitch #1
Post #226 Posted: Tue Nov 30, 2010 5:29 pm 
Gosei
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Black suggestion:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm18 Move 18 - B:0 - W:0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . a O . O . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . X . , 2 . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . 1 . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I like Jedo's move (a) best, but just to provide another alternative, I'll suggest this.

First off, why do I like Jedo's move? Because it's the natural and obvious way to attack :w18:. It was the move I immediately considered when seeing white's move. Lean on strong stones to build up strength, while simultaneously moving out to defend our stones and prevent us from getting shut in. If white ignores it to defend :w18: by extending, the aji of our right side stone comes to life. If he responds, we can pincer :w18: and attack strongly.

As for my move, it defends the corner territory while threatening to connect up to our side stone.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B white 2 tenuki
$$ . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . O . X . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . a O . O 3 . |
$$ . . . X . , 1 . . |
$$ . O . . . X . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ------------------[/go]

On the other hand, white can defend simply by descending, which leaves a big follow-up for white in the corner later. But we can come back and get a too, if white does decide to defend.

Finally, I think tenuki is probably a bad idea. The lower right is clearly the hot area of the board with white's attackable stone peeking up our open skirt.

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Offline Jordus
 Post subject: Re: Teamovitch #1
Post #227 Posted: Tue Nov 30, 2010 6:38 pm 
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Black Move Suggestion:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm19 - B:0 - W:0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , 1 . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . a . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . b . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . X . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . O . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Here we go... just something different...

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Offline Joaz Banbeck
 Post subject: Re: Teamovitch #1
Post #228 Posted: Tue Nov 30, 2010 7:57 pm 
Judan
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm18 Move 18 - B:0 - W:0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 O . O . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . X . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . O . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I'll make the move now so our honorable opponents can proceed with their debate.
My comments will come later.

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Offline tj86430
 Post subject: Re: Teamovitch #1
Post #229 Posted: Wed Dec 01, 2010 2:25 am 
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WIC:

I will start by suggesting the most obvious (to me at least):

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . W . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . O . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . X . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . a . . O . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


If we don't defend here, I believe all sorts of nasty things become possible. There may be other good moves in this area, but this seems most natural to me.

If I was convinced we could tenuki, then I would suggest a)

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Offline topazg
 Post subject: Re: Teamovitch #1
Post #230 Posted: Wed Dec 01, 2010 3:15 am 
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm20 Move 20
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . O . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . X . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . O . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Apologies to both of the other two of you, but this I see as completely forced, if we are to be consistent with our awesome game winning strategy. Thanks for the prompt post TJ :)

To teammates:

Black's almost definitely going to pincer now, but may lean - please can we have a think about how we respond to all of the following:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm20 Move 20
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . f . X O . O . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . d b e . . X . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . c a . O . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Ideally, if we can get sente here, we get to return to the to left as well - if we can manage this, I think we are still looking good for this game, but it's only going to get more complicated from here!
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Offline tj86430
 Post subject: Re: Teamovitch #1
Post #231 Posted: Wed Dec 01, 2010 3:37 am 
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topazg wrote:
Black's almost definitely going to pincer now, but may lean - please can we have a think about how we respond to all of the following:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm20 Move 20
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . f . X O . O . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . d b e . . X . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . c a . O . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


My first thoughts: to a) and c) I would respond at f) (or possibly e)). To b) and d) either at f) or K2. To e) most likely L3 and finally to f) I would respond at c).

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Offline gaius
 Post subject: Re: Teamovitch #1
Post #232 Posted: Wed Dec 01, 2010 5:53 am 
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topazg wrote:
Ideally, if we can get sente here, we get to return to the to left as well - if we can manage this, I think we are still looking good for this game, but it's only going to get more complicated from here!

Sure, ideally white would like to get sente! But if they don't get it, they will have a problem, because a black pincer at the top left looks really scary. That is why white's tenuki two moves ago was a big overplay - they should have defended the top left IMO.

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Offline topazg
 Post subject: Re: Teamovitch #1
Post #233 Posted: Wed Dec 01, 2010 7:51 am 
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Finally my comments on 18:

The move:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm18 Move 18 - B:0 - W:0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . X . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . 1 . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


To team and observers:

@TJ: I think the top left is more urgent than the lower right, and I really think White should have played there, but I don't want to give Black such an easy job of extending out from the corner. If we are going to play 5-4 and let Black take the 3-3, we must seal in for thickness - letting Black crawl out on the top uncontested feels inadequate for White.

As both other players suggested moves elsewhere, I had to pick a move I wanted to play in the lower right that feels like it's good locally for us, and I just hope we get sente back for the top left. I find it ironic that I suggested tenuki options strongly and then wish I had more local ones :D

@Chew: I think this move is big, though locally I'd probably play it a bit differently now, and I agree we want to remove the aji of that stone, but the goal of this sequence is to force Black to fix our weaknesses for us while keeping the pressure up on his group. Depending on how Black develops his position on the lower side, we may have some reasonable success here, but it is a hard fight.

@Red: I like this move because it's so undermining of Black's position, and seems to have a nice "flow" (to quote a magicwandism). We are steadily creating a position where Black hasn't gotten the points that he'd like from 4 corner positions.

There is a real urgent position in the top left that we want to return to, and some great aji in the top right and, depending on how/whether Black settles in the lower right, down there too. I have no idea who's going to come out of this with more points. I think Black has an easier position to play and get an advantage, but White I think has good chances from here to do really well with some high precision moves.
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Offline fwiffo
 Post subject: Re: Teamovitch #1
Post #234 Posted: Wed Dec 01, 2010 8:02 am 
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Black chat:
Just the first couple possibilities that spring to mind:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm20 Move 20
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . O . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . X . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . a . O b . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Attacking the M3 stone was why we were leaning, so a seems like the most straightforward way to do that. Not sure if we can do b first... It might not be best here.

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Offline Joaz Banbeck
 Post subject: Re: Teamovitch #1
Post #235 Posted: Wed Dec 01, 2010 9:33 am 
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Joaz Banbeck wrote:
...
My comments will come later.


Comments about previous move, for both teammates and observers:
The logic here is rather simple. The two areas proposed are the top left and bottom right. Right now, the lower right is more important.

If they attack in the upper left, the worst they can do is push us down, but we live. A 3-3 invasion of the 5-4 is standard joseki. ( I don't actually know the joseki, but I'm sure that with three suggestions per move, we can find it over the board if the need arises. ) At worst, we still live. Our 3-3 has control of eye space. Jordus' suggestion is no doubt the proper way to continue in the corner if we decide to do so, but it is not urgent.

If they attack in the lower right, there are all kinds of forcing moves, some of which permanently remove any possibility of us getting eyes down there. So that makes the lower right more urgent.
Stardard defensive policy for an attacked group is to either secure eye space, or secure a path to run out.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . a O . O . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . X c , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . O . . . X d . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . b . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


That was a fairly simple decision. The next is not.
The two suggested moves were:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm18 Move 18 - B:0 - W:0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . a O . O . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . X . , b . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . O . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


To survive any attacks against us, we can either push out with 'a' or grab eye space with 'b'. I'm not even going to bother to read it out: as a matter of style, I'd rather fight than hide in the corner. On top of that, even Fwiffo - who suggested 'b' - likes 'a' better.

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Offline topazg
 Post subject: Re: Teamovitch #1
Post #236 Posted: Wed Dec 01, 2010 9:56 am 
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To strong observers, as it is too late now:

Was :w18: better here:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm18 Move 18 - B:0 - W:0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . 1 . X . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . C . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I didn't like it as much as the low move, but it's been bugging me for a while - answers in a hidden postcard fine, but let me know when I (and other interested players) can look :)
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Offline Joaz Banbeck
 Post subject: Re: Teamovitch #1
Post #237 Posted: Wed Dec 01, 2010 9:58 am 
Judan
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fwiffo wrote:
Black chat:
Just the first couple possibilities that spring to mind:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm20 Move 20
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X O . O . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . X . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . a . O b . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Attacking the M3 stone was why we were leaning, so a seems like the most straightforward way to do that. Not sure if we can do b first... It might not be best here.


For observers and teammates:
Embedded in Fwiffo's post is a big question, and I'd like to make that question more explicit: Does our lower right group have ensure its safety by making eye space with a move something like 'b', or are we going to ensure its safety by running out?

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Offline Joaz Banbeck
 Post subject: Re: Teamovitch #1
Post #238 Posted: Wed Dec 01, 2010 10:01 am 
Judan
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topazg wrote:
To strong observers, as it is too late now:

Was :w18: better here:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm18 Move 18 - B:0 - W:0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . O . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . 1 . X . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . C . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I didn't like it as much as the low move, but it's been bugging me for a while - answers in a hidden postcard fine, but let me know when I (and other interested players) can look :)


It is clearly not as good as the move that you chose. Like M3, it is an overplay, but unlike M3 it does not threaten our eyespace with O2.
And it is not enough to threaten to lock us in:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm18
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 O . O . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . 4 . 1 . X . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


If we get locked in, we are taking fifth rank territory, along with most of the lower side.

Or we can push out, and let white struggle for eyespace:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm18
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . 3 . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 O . O . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . . . 1 . X . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . 7 . 6 . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Either continuation seems inferior to the current game position.

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Offline topazg
 Post subject: Re: Teamovitch #1
Post #239 Posted: Wed Dec 01, 2010 10:11 am 
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Joaz Banbeck wrote:
It is clearly not as good as the move that you chose. Like M3, it is an overplay, but unlike M3 it does not threaten our eyespace with O2.
And it is not enough to threaten to lock us in:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm18
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 W . O . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . 4 . 1 . B . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


If we get locked in, we are taking fourth rank territory, along woth most of the


I was actually hoping for someone rather stronger than either of us to comment :P I ask as it's a fairly typical shape with respect to the two marked stones, and whilst I don't like it as much as the lower move for various tactical considerations I have discussed elsewhere, it also has other merits that probably are not enough due to being on the 4th line (rather than the shape typically played on the 3rd line - see magicwand vs wms' Malkovich game). I also think :b21: in your diagram in no way guarantees taking 4th line territory.

Also, I think that M3 is an overplay needs to be proved over the board still, don't you? ;)
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Offline Joaz Banbeck
 Post subject: Re: Teamovitch #1
Post #240 Posted: Wed Dec 01, 2010 10:16 am 
Judan
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The post that you quote was unfinished. I was trying to correct a typo and accidentally posted it.

topazg wrote:
Also, I think that M3 is an overplay needs to be proved over the board still, don't you? ;)


I'm waiting for suggestions to crush it. :mrgreen:

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