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 Post subject: Re: Teamovitch #1
Post #401 Posted: Mon Feb 21, 2011 4:52 am 
Gosei

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Red?

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 Post subject: Re: Teamovitch #1
Post #402 Posted: Mon Feb 21, 2011 5:08 am 
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My bad.
We want to tenuki to to the top left ASAP. Things seem pretty settled in the middle, so let's do so. I think the left is more important than the top, so c16.

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 Post subject: Re: Teamovitch #1
Post #403 Posted: Wed Feb 23, 2011 3:52 am 
Tengen
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Sorry about the delay, I'd forgotten chew had already suggested a move.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm41
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O O X . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . O X X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . O X . 4 O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O X . . . O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . O X . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X . . O . X O . O . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . X . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . X . O X . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


@Team:

Red: Hmmm, hadn't looked at that, really interesting idea. How do you intend on handling the weak point at "a" that makes sort of miai of "b":

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm41
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X 7 . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . b 6 , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . a . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . b . . . . . . O O X . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . O X X . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . O X . 4 O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O X . . . O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . O X . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X . . O . X O . O . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . X . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . X . O X . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


@TJ: I agree we'll get it in sente, but we'll never get to cut at M12. I don't know if we want to or not just yet, but it's nice to know the option is there - if the cut starts to look worthless, this move looks good.

@Chew: I'm calling them on this, let's see how secure their group is.


@Obs:

This game is complicated. I think Black has only 1 guaranteed eye in the lower right, but it's possible Black has 1.5 - either way, we should be able to get some value from the cut at M12. Timing between that and the top left is pretty tricky for me though.

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 Post subject: Re: Teamovitch #1
Post #404 Posted: Wed Feb 23, 2011 7:45 am 
Gosei
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Black suggestion:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm41
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O O X . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . O X X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . O X a 4 O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O X 5 b . O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . O X . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X . . O . X O . O . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . X . , c . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . X . O X . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

White's last move was obvious - our shape gets destroyed in sente. There are three ways to protect the cut, :b45:, a and b. I don't see any reason to make it more complicated than it needs to be.

Tenuki, like c, may be OK if we know for sure white will respond, but I don't think getting cut here is a risk I want to take.

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 Post subject: Re: Teamovitch #1
Post #405 Posted: Wed Feb 23, 2011 8:16 am 
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@Topaz:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X 2 . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . 1 , 3 . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O O X . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . O X X . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . O X . O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O X . . . O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . O X . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X . . O . X O . O . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . X . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . X . O X . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


We have sente to fix the aji if we want. Also,if we fix the aji, our wall makes this area almost uninvadeable.

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 Post subject: Re: Teamovitch #1
Post #406 Posted: Wed Feb 23, 2011 8:25 am 
Tengen
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@Red:

Thanks, I wondered about :w3:, but wasn't clear on what impact it had on the aji - are you aiming at:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 7 X 2 . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . 1 , 3 . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 8 . . . . . . O O X . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . O X X . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . O X . O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O X . . . O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . O X . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X . . O . X O . O . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . X . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . X . O X . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


or

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X 2 . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . 8 1 , 3 . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . 6 9 . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 7 . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O O X . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . O X X . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . O X . O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O X . . . O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . O X . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X . . O . X O . O . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . X . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . X . O X . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


@Obs:

If it's the latter, I think we should take :w1: @ :w3: directly.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , 1 . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O O X . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . O X X . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . O X . O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O X . . . O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . O X . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X . . O . X O . O . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . X . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . X . O X . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

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 Post subject: Re: Teamovitch #1
Post #407 Posted: Wed Feb 23, 2011 9:43 am 
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@Topaz:
I'm aiming at taking gote to make the left side huge by removing the aji :D

Not sure what's the best way to do that, but there seem to be plenty of options.

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 Post subject: Re: Teamovitch #1
Post #408 Posted: Wed Feb 23, 2011 9:59 am 
Tengen
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Redundant wrote:
@Topaz:
I'm aiming at taking gote to make the left side huge by removing the aji :D

Not sure what's the best way to do that, but there seem to be plenty of options.


Hehe, yeah, that makes some sense, ok :)

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 Post subject: Re: Teamovitch #1
Post #409 Posted: Wed Feb 23, 2011 11:30 am 
Judan
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It is the only sane reply so I'm not waiting for something else.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm41
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O O X . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . O X X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . O X . 4 O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O X 5 . . O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . O X . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X . . O . X O . O . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . X . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . X . O X . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

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 Post subject: Re: Teamovitch #1
Post #410 Posted: Wed Feb 23, 2011 11:51 am 
Gosei
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Black internal chat:
I'm getting a little nervous; white has no weak groups and their influence has dominion over big swaths of the board. Obviously, that can be reduced, but we also still have a big clunky group to deal with.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm41
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O O X . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . O X X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . O X . O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O X X . . O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . O X . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X . . O . X O . O . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . X . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . X . O X . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ {LN K6 C7}
$$ {LN K11 D15}
$$ {LN N9 Q14}[/go]

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 Post subject: Re: Teamovitch #1
Post #411 Posted: Wed Feb 23, 2011 11:55 am 
Gosei

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WIC/Suggestion:

I assume Chew is suggesting M12, Red will suggest C16 and K12 isn't any better than last time, so I'll try to come up with something new.

E17 is one option. What else is there....O11 looks nice locally, but it's not very big, neither is anything in the lower right corner. C6 is one option, but it's smallish as well, and invites black to invade top left. What about reducing blacks bottom left and building our center with something like G6 - it just doesn't look right.

I don't know, I'll nominate E17.

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 Post subject: Re: Teamovitch #1
Post #412 Posted: Wed Feb 23, 2011 12:36 pm 
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I stick by my suggestion.

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 Post subject: Re: Teamovitch #1
Post #413 Posted: Wed Feb 23, 2011 1:37 pm 
Judan
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fwiffo wrote:
Black internal chat:
I'm getting a little nervous; white has no weak groups and their influence has dominion over big swaths of the board.

BIC:
Then maybe we should think about creating some weak white groups and/or increasing our influence?

But we are ahead in territory, I think. Unless white takes a gote move to finish of R8

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 Post subject: Re: Teamovitch #1
Post #414 Posted: Wed Feb 23, 2011 1:46 pm 
Gosei
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For observers:
I recently read somewhere about some snack food from the 70s called "Screaming Yellow Zonkers", made famous by the humorous copy on the box.

Quote:
The Disappearing Zonker Trick: After putting on your magician's outfit, look around the house for a handkerchief, two hard boiled eggs, and a small piece of radium. Then take seven Zonkers and place them neatly into the exact center of the handkerchief. Two eggs are arranged near each other and under your hands. Tie a half-hitch knot in the radium. Then make the seven Zonkers disappear. Your friends will be amazed.

:D

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 Post subject: Re: Teamovitch #1
Post #415 Posted: Wed Feb 23, 2011 1:52 pm 
Tengen
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm41
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X 6 . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . 2 O X . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . O X 3 . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . O X . 4 O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O X 5 . . O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . O X . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X . . O . X O . O . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . X . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . X . O X . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


@team:

I think Black needs to play carefully for two eyes here. Let's see what we can do :)

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 Post subject: Re: Teamovitch #1
Post #416 Posted: Wed Feb 23, 2011 2:05 pm 
Gosei
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WIC:
Actually, I was thinking about not suggesting the cut. The cut gives us a ton of central thickness. Alternatively, however, we could simply take moves in the corner in sente. At this point, we could try to get the corner points in sente with a slide to S3 (big, as it looks sente for life of the group). After that, black will almost certainly fix the cutting point in gote, allowing us to take a move in the top corner. Basically, if it's a choice between taking points in the corner, or take a move in the middle that could possibly become dame later, I'll take the profit and feel good about the attack. Chasing this group helped us build points on the right (kind of), so we can probably be happy with the results of attacking the black group.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm41 My suggestion
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O O X . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . O X X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . O X . 4 O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O X 5 . . O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . O X . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X . . O . X O . O . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . X . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . X . O X . . X . 6 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

If Topazg disagrees with this thinking, he can definitely take your move in the top left, and then we can return to the cut. Similarly, if you guys see a better move in the corner, please point it out.

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 Post subject: Re: Teamovitch #1
Post #417 Posted: Wed Feb 23, 2011 2:18 pm 
Tengen
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Hold on Black, I may have made a mistake!

~Team:

And particularly Chew - sorry, from your last one I had thought that was a trigger :(

Would you rather go with the :w46: in the last dia as your proposal?

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 Post subject: Re: Teamovitch #1
Post #418 Posted: Wed Feb 23, 2011 2:40 pm 
Gosei
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Nevermind, no mistake! I forgot I made a trigger for this move. =)

Whoops, forgot I made a trigger a few moves ago. Anyway, I like both the cut and the scoop, so this should be fine. If worst comes to worse, this works well with anything on top.

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 Post subject: Re: Teamovitch #1
Post #419 Posted: Wed Feb 23, 2011 2:44 pm 
Tengen
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Ok to go Black, no mistake after all :)

Ah, sorry about that anyway, I still should have waited - for some reason I thought you weren't posting because in effect, you'd already put forward your suggestion, but I should have asked :-?

It only seems polite having posted it to go with it now, so we'll see what happens! At least the top should become even more interesting this way!

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 Post subject: Re: Teamovitch #1
Post #420 Posted: Wed Feb 23, 2011 2:53 pm 
Gosei
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Now that it's moot, did you have a preference between cutting first or scooping the corner first? There may be better corner moves, as well, I'm just curious if one stratagem is better than the other.

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