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Offline Jordus
 Post subject: Re: Teamovitch #1
Post #441 Posted: Tue Mar 01, 2011 3:57 pm 
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Black Suggestion:
I will re-suggest Fwiffos original move. I really think we can live if white decides to attack us.

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Offline Jedo
 Post subject: Re: Teamovitch #1
Post #442 Posted: Tue Mar 01, 2011 4:03 pm 
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How would you respond to this?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm41
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , .1 . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O O X . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . O X X . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . O X . O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O X X . . O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . O X . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X . . O . X O . O O . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . X 2 , X . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . X . O X . 3 X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O . 4 . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

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Offline Jordus
 Post subject: Re: Teamovitch #1
Post #443 Posted: Tue Mar 01, 2011 4:19 pm 
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@jedo

I am assuming your last comment is at me....

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm41
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , .1 . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O O X . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . O X X . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . O X . O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O X X . . O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . O X . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X . . O . X O . O O . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . X 2 , X . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . X . O X . 3 X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O 5 4 . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

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Offline Jedo
 Post subject: Re: Teamovitch #1
Post #444 Posted: Tue Mar 01, 2011 6:37 pm 
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Not trying to put you on the spot here, just wondering how our reading differs. After your diagram:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm41
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , .1 . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O O X . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . O X X . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . O X . O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O X X . . O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . O X . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X . . O . X O . O O . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . X 2 , X . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . X . O X . 3 X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O 5 4 7 . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 0 6 8 9 . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm41
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , X . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O O X . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . O X X . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . O X . O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O X X . . O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . O X . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X . . O . X O . O O . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . X O , X . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . X . O X 1 X X . 2 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O X O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O O O X . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Can we stop this?

_________________
"There are no limits. There are plateaus, but you must not stay there, you must go beyond them. If it kills you, it kills you. A man must constantly exceed his level." -- Bruce Lee
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Offline Jordus
 Post subject: Re: Teamovitch #1
Post #445 Posted: Tue Mar 01, 2011 7:28 pm 
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@jedo
white plays a,b,c, or d
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm41
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , .1 . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O O X . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . O X X . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . O X . O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O X X . . O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . O X . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X . . O . X O . O O . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . X O , X . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . X . O X 1 X X . d . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O X O b . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O c a . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


if a

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm41
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , .1 . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O O X . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . O X X . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . O X . O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O X X . . O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . O X . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X . . O . X O . O O . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . X O , X . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . X . O X 1 X X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O X O 3 . 7 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 6 O 4 2 5 . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


if b
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm41
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , .1 . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O O X . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . O X X . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . O X . O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O X X . . O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . O X . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X . . O . X O . O O . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . X O , X . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . X . O X 1 X X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O X O 2 3 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O 4 . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


c seems bad....

if d
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm41
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , .1 . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O O X . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . O X X . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . O X . O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O X X . . O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . O X . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X . . O . X O . O O . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . X O , X . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . X . O X 1 X X . 2 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O X O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . O 3 4 5 . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

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Offline Joaz Banbeck
 Post subject: Re: Teamovitch #1
Post #446 Posted: Tue Mar 01, 2011 8:14 pm 
Judan
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Kaya handle: Test
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm41
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O O X . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . O X X . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . O X . O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O X X . . O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . O X . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X . . O . X O . O O . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . X . , X 1 . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . X . O X . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


To teammates & observers:
I think that we die unconditionally if we don't do something. Of the two plays that make life, I'll take the one that assists R8 most.

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Offline tj86430
 Post subject: Re: Teamovitch #1
Post #447 Posted: Wed Mar 02, 2011 12:18 am 
Gosei

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WIC/suggestion:

I think we can afford to tenuki here. I'm not sure if we want to. If we play locally, I think the best spot is around P2/P3, but because I'm bad at reading, I will let someone else to suggest a local play (if necessary).

On the global side, after recent development, the top-left center has become very interesting. I think we have two ways to focus our attention there, either by first playing in the top-left corner (e.g. E17), and if we get sente there playing in the top center. The other approach is to play top center first, and it starts to look more and more appealing to me. Therefore I suggest:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm41
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , W . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O O X . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . O X X . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . O X . O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O X X . . O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . O X . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X . . O . X O . O O . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . X . , X X . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . X . O X . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

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Offline Magicwand
 Post subject: Re: Teamovitch #1
Post #448 Posted: Wed Mar 02, 2011 11:08 am 
Tengen
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Posts: 4844
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KGS: magicwand
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Wbaduk: rlatkfkd
DGS: magicwand
OGS: magicwand
not for the players: obs only:
korean professionals will say.. below move is neither this nor that move.
tell me exactly what the purpose of that move is.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm41
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , W . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O O X . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . O X X . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . O X . O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O X X . . O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . O X . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X . . O . X O . O O . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . X . , X X . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . X . O X . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


if he want to leave ajin in the corner he should play as below:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm41
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . W . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O O X . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . O X X . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . O X . O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O X X . . O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . O X . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X . . O . X O . O O . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . X . , X X . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . X . O X . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


if he want to kill the aji of one stone he should play as below:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm41
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . W . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O O X . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . O X X . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . O X . O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O X X . . O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . O X . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X . . O . X O . O O . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . X . , X X . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . X . O X . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

or
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm41
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . W . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O O X . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . O X X . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . O X . O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O X X . . O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . O X . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X . . O . X O . O O . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . X . , X X . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . X . O X . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


but his move is missing every purpose. practically dame fillin.
if you want to improve.. never play such meaningless move.

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Offline Chew Terr
 Post subject: Re: Teamovitch #1
Post #449 Posted: Thu Mar 03, 2011 1:52 pm 
Gosei
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm41
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O O X . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . O X X . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . O X . O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O X X . . O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . c . . O X X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . O X . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X . . O . X O . O O . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . X 2 , X 1 . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . X . O X a 3 X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . b . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

As TJ suggested a tenuki and I'm betting Red will suggest one in the top left, I'll suggest a local followup. First, let's squeeze the base tighter, then we can maybe jump. With this jump, if we can prevent an eye at 'a', we can threaten something like 'b'. I have no clue if it would work, but it seems likely to be sente. Also, if this doesn't work locally., I think nothing does. If Topazg thinks we can't kill the corner, I think he should ignore this and take a tenuki. I know I should read out all followups, but I'm having a hard time doing it. I do have to wonder about something like 'c'. The thickness seems pretty impressive...

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Offline tj86430
 Post subject: Re: Teamovitch #1
Post #450 Posted: Thu Mar 03, 2011 2:01 pm 
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WIC:

Chew Terr wrote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm41
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O O X . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . O X X . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . O X . O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O X X . . O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . c . . O X X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . O X . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X . . O . X O . O O . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . X 2 , X 1 . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . X . O X a 3 X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . b . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

As TJ suggested a tenuki and I'm betting Red will suggest one in the top left, I'll suggest a local followup. First, let's squeeze the base tighter, then we can maybe jump. With this jump, if we can prevent an eye at 'a', we can threaten something like 'b'. I have no clue if it would work, but it seems likely to be sente. Also, if this doesn't work locally., I think nothing does. If Topazg thinks we can't kill the corner, I think he should ignore this and take a tenuki. I know I should read out all followups, but I'm having a hard time doing it. I do have to wonder about something like 'c'. The thickness seems pretty impressive...


I don't think we can prevent an eye at 'a' with the jump:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O O X . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . O X X . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . O X . O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O X X . . O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . O X . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X . . O . X O . O O . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . 6 5 X O , X X . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . X . O X . X X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O 3 1 7 . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 2 W . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


e: I believe that if we want to have a chance of killing the corner we would have to start with either P2 or P3 instead of P4

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Offline Chew Terr
 Post subject: Re: Teamovitch #1
Post #451 Posted: Thu Mar 03, 2011 3:19 pm 
Gosei
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tj86430 wrote:
WIC:

Chew Terr wrote:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm41
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O O X . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . O X X . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . O X . O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O X X . . O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . c . . O X X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . O X . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X . . O . X O . O O . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . X 2 , X 1 . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . X . O X a 3 X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . b . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

As TJ suggested a tenuki and I'm betting Red will suggest one in the top left, I'll suggest a local followup. First, let's squeeze the base tighter, then we can maybe jump. With this jump, if we can prevent an eye at 'a', we can threaten something like 'b'. I have no clue if it would work, but it seems likely to be sente. Also, if this doesn't work locally., I think nothing does. If Topazg thinks we can't kill the corner, I think he should ignore this and take a tenuki. I know I should read out all followups, but I'm having a hard time doing it. I do have to wonder about something like 'c'. The thickness seems pretty impressive...


I don't think we can prevent an eye at 'a' with the jump:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O O X . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . O X X . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . O X . O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O X X . . O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . O X . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X . . O . X O . O O . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . 6 5 X O , X X . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . X . O X . X X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O 3 1 7 . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 2 W . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


e: I believe that if we want to have a chance of killing the corner we would have to start with either P2 or P3 instead of P4

My reading was that P2 and P3 don't work. If I'm not mistaken, that may mean that the corner can't currently be killed. If worst comes to worst though, this is sente, which we could then use to seal this 5-10 point group in, or tenuki completely.

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Offline Aphelion
 Post subject: Re: Teamovitch #1
Post #452 Posted: Thu Mar 03, 2011 5:46 pm 
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I''m late catching up with this game, so I'm going to bring up a move 20 moves ago:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm19 Move 19
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . O . O . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . X . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . O . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I'm surprised no one mentioned this move. Black's pushing behind felt like bad shape and aji-keshi.
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Offline Joaz Banbeck
 Post subject: Re: Teamovitch #1
Post #453 Posted: Thu Mar 03, 2011 7:25 pm 
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For observers:
Aphelion wrote:
I'm surprised no one mentioned this move. Black's pushing behind felt like bad shape and aji-keshi.


@Aphelion: I tend to agree with you. But the nominated moves were 'a', 'b', and 'c' below:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm19 Move 19
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , a . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 b O . O . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . X . , c . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . O . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


We really had to get out, and 'b', although not ideal, was the best move that they gave me.

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Offline Redundant
 Post subject: Re: Teamovitch #1
Post #454 Posted: Thu Mar 03, 2011 10:16 pm 
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Same move, top left. C16 may end in gote, but our big wall along with what we build there outweighs what black gains on the top.
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Offline tj86430
 Post subject: Re: Teamovitch #1
Post #455 Posted: Fri Mar 04, 2011 1:49 am 
Gosei

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WIC:

Chew Terr wrote:
My reading was that P2 and P3 don't work. If I'm not mistaken, that may mean that the corner can't currently be killed.

That may well be the case. I did some reading earlier, and found that the battle will be complicated, but I didn't find a successful defense for black. Such may well exist, because I'm bad at reading and I only did a quick reading excercise.

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Offline topazg
 Post subject: Re: Teamovitch #1
Post #456 Posted: Fri Mar 04, 2011 2:39 am 
Tengen
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm41
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O O X . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . O X X . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . O X . O O . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O X X . . O . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . O X . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X . . O . X O . O O . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . X 2 , X B . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . X . O X . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


@Team:

This one's sente, and it's the only reason I'm picking it. I'll explain more after the next options are presented.


@Obs:

I've decided not to give anything away here. The whole purpose of the push and cut and working ladder is it has changed our thickness to work in two directions at once simultaneously. This means our joseki choice in the top left must be one that helps the left _and_ the top, so I don't feel I can pick red's choice. TJ's move is a good general idea with respect to area of the board, but it's a move that doesn't do enough of anything. Black gets to play the first move in the top left. The ladder doesn't work if Black decides to remove it, and the top stone could simply just become a lonesome target (or, go from a "I'm a border post on a moyo of awesomeness" move to a "Woo, I'm probably alive with a two point jump base on the third line" move), so I don't want to play it even though it's clearly eyeing the right part of the board.

Chew's move is sente, so I get another set of options, and it's not _too_ badly aji keshi. I hope they get the hint that I don't like either of their moves :S


EDIT: I gave Black their stone back :D
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Offline Jordus
 Post subject: Re: Teamovitch #1
Post #457 Posted: Fri Mar 04, 2011 2:56 am 
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Topaz!! You sneaky ninja you! Making our last move disappear like that :batman:

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Offline topazg
 Post subject: Re: Teamovitch #1
Post #458 Posted: Fri Mar 04, 2011 3:15 am 
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Jordus wrote:
Topaz!! You sneaky ninja you! Making our last move disappear like that :batman:


* Sneaky ninja gets spotted. Sneaky ninja apologises and returns the stone politely *

Haha, missed that completely, copy and paste error from a team-mates post, I promise :D
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Offline tj86430
 Post subject: Re: Teamovitch #1
Post #459 Posted: Fri Mar 04, 2011 3:50 am 
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WIC:

Quote:
This one's sente, and it's the only reason I'm picking it. I'll explain more after the next options are presented.


Is this a subtle way of saying "your suggestions were all crap, try to come up with something better next time"? :shock: :lol:

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Offline topazg
 Post subject: Re: Teamovitch #1
Post #460 Posted: Fri Mar 04, 2011 3:56 am 
Tengen
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tj86430 wrote:
WIC:

Quote:
This one's sente, and it's the only reason I'm picking it. I'll explain more after the next options are presented.


Is this a subtle way of saying "your suggestions were all crap, try to come up with something better next time"? :shock: :lol:


WIC:

Haha, no, not at all, just not where I want to play :D
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