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Offline Magicwand
 Post subject: Re: Gang Malkovich 1: Magicwand vs the Gang of Five
Post #141 Posted: Thu Apr 28, 2011 1:03 pm 
Tengen
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for obs only:
as i look at the board position, i try to find out what is the difference between black and white.
i think every white stone is very light and not easily attacked.
OC black stone is in inefficient awkward shape.
although i am still trailing i dont think i am down too much.


one example of their efficiency can be seen at their last two move.
you can see that black is doing nothing with that two move.
while white is gaining points and stealing eyespace of black group.
although i dont have the flow yet i think i will get that flow soon enough because i already have a base for the flow.
below sequence is what i am trying for. if i get that sequence...game will be over soon.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm25 Prisoners: B 1, W 0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . W X X X X . X . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X O X O . . , . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . O O O X O . . O . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O O . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . X . . . . . . . X . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . 3 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . B B . . 4 . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . W O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


i dont think they will give me that sequence. :)

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Offline Dusk Eagle
 Post subject: Re: Gang Malkovich 1: Magicwand vs the Gang of Five
Post #142 Posted: Tue May 03, 2011 7:18 pm 
Gosei
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm38 Prisoners: B 1, W 0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . x d . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X X X X . X . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X O X O . . e . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . O O O X O . . O . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O O . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . X . . . . . . . X . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . b . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . c a . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

[Kirby] When I put my attacking cap on, I want to play 'a' to threaten to connect. If white blocks, then I want to jump out around 'b' to split white apart, and start causing some damage. However, I am somewhat worried about the health of our group on the top. I am worried about white's potential to take away eyespace. For example, Diagram 38.A.1, below...

[JoazBanbeck] I like 'a'. See diagram 38.A.2 below. I like 'c' for the same reason. ( How do we develop the group in the lower left after we play 'a', and he blocks at C9? I like 'c' better when I think of follow-up moves. )

I could really like 'd' if someone could show me that 'x' kills if he tenukis.

[Kirby] Your sequence is convincing to me. If we play something like 'a', It's also possible that white tenukis, and then we'd have to respond to get two eyes (see diagrams).

[daniel the smith] Didn't we determine a while ago that this white move threatens to kill our stones on top?

[JoazBanbeck] Not that I recall. I think that some gang members claimed that it was so, while others - such as myself - remained uncertain. ( Perhaps we didn't have E11 at the time. That would have made escape by white easy. )

BTW, the sooner we play 'b', the harder it is for him to threaten our upper left group, because it threatens to kill more easily as it runs southward.

[Dusk Eagle] I feel lost in this situation. I'll propose probing at ''e''. If he defends on the right, we can drop down to J18 in response to him playing H18. If he defends on the left, we have gained the aji of cutting through his stones on the right.

[JoazBanbeck] Playing at 'e' is too slow IMHO. See diagram 38.E.1. I think we need 'a' or 'b' or 'c'.

[Dusk Eagle] I think we need to add a move to the top side, since white got the coveted 3-3 point. Our group on the left can still escape along the left even after 38.E.1.

[Kirby] I agree with Dusk Eagle that our group will probably survive after 38.E.1, but it'd be too bad to lose out on the chance to split white and attack him. On the other hand, it is hard to attack the top white group severely, since white has forcing moves against the black group on the top. I'm also at a loss. We need to decide on something, though, so I'll vote 0.5 for 'e', and 0.5 for 'a'.

[daniel the smith] 1.0 for ''e''.

[JoazBanbeck] I think that 'e' is aji-keshi, and it strenghthens his top group which weakens the effectiveness of moves like 'b'. I'll support any of 'a', 'b', or 'c'. But eventually we must play 'b'.

To be precise, my vote is negative one against 'e'.

[daniel the smith] I guess that means that DE gets to pick the next move!

[Dusk Eagle] I'm also voting ''e''.

----

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1 Diagram 38.A.1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . 1 3 4 5 . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X X X X 2 X . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X O X O . . , . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . O O O X O . . O . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O O . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . X . . . . . . . X . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


is a bit worrying to me ([Kirby]).


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Diagram 38.A.2
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . O O X O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X X X X X X . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X O X O . . 1 . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . O O O X O . 3 O . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O O . 5 4 . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . X . . 7 6 . . . X . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . a . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


[JoazBanbeck] I'm not worried. I like 'a'.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Diagram 38.A.3
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 2 . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X X X X . X . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X O X O . . . . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . O O O X O . . O . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O O . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . X . . . . . . . X . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


[Kirby] Maybe we can live on top with our sente, but we may strengthen white in the process. I guess we should make sure that we are ready for such a scenario.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Diagram 38.A.4
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . X . 2 . . 1 . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X X X X . X . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X O X O . . . . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . O O O X O . . O . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O O . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . X . . . . . . . X . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


[Kirby] Also, it might be kind of tough to live, too. White has some forcing moves. I'd like to make sure we consider every possibility about not dying before playing away from the top... :-)

----
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Diagram 38.C.1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X X X X . X . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X O X O . . , . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . O O O X O . . O . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O O . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . X . . . . . . . X . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . 2 O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . x 1 a . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

[JoazBanbeck] I like this better than 'a', because it has the same benefits of threatening to conect, but it does not allow white the slide at 'x', as 'a' does.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Diagram 38.E.1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . x d . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X X X X . X . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X O X O . . 1 . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . O O O X O . . O . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O O . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . X . . . . . . . X . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . 3 2 b . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . f . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . c a . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . g . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


[JoazBanbeck] I think that we have to do something about our left side group.

[Dusk Eagle] After this, can't we just slide to ''f''? If white plays ''c'', we nobi and cut, if white plays something less severe, we're in the clear. White might try ''g'' but I think we can handle that fine too.

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Offline Magicwand
 Post subject: Re: Gang Malkovich 1: Magicwand vs the Gang of Five
Post #143 Posted: Wed May 04, 2011 2:38 am 
Tengen
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DGS: magicwand
OGS: magicwand
???

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"The more we think we know about
The greater the unknown"
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Offline Kirby
 Post subject: Re: Gang Malkovich 1: Magicwand vs the Gang of Five
Post #144 Posted: Wed May 04, 2011 4:22 am 
Honinbo

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I think DuskEagle meant to post this:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm38 Prisoners: B 1, W 0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X X X X . X . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X O X O . . B . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . O O O X O . . O . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O O . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . X . . . . . . . X . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

=== Discussion for black 38 ===

$$Bcm38 Prisoners: B 1, W 0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . x d . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X X X X . X . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X O X O . . e . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . O O O X O . . O . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O O . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . X . . . . . . . X . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . b . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . c a . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------

[Kirby] When I put my attacking cap on, I want to play 'a' to threaten to connect. If white blocks, then I want to jump out around 'b' to split white apart, and start causing some damage. However, I am somewhat worried about the health of our group on the top. I am worried about white's potential to take away eyespace. For example, Diagram 38.A.1, below...

[JoazBanbeck] I like 'a'. See diagram 38.A.2 below. I like 'c' for the same reason. ( How do we develop the group in the lower left after we play 'a', and he blocks at C9? I like 'c' better when I think of follow-up moves. )

I could really like 'd' if someone could show me that 'x' kills if he tenukis.

[Kirby] Your sequence is convincing to me. If we play something like 'a', It's also possible that white tenukis, and then we'd have to respond to get two eyes (see diagrams).

[daniel the smith] Didn't we determine a while ago that this white move threatens to kill our stones on top?

[JoazBanbeck] Not that I recall. I think that some gang members claimed that it was so, while others - such as myself - remained uncertain. ( Perhaps we didn't have E11 at the time. That would have made escape by white easy. )

BTW, the sooner we play 'b', the harder it is for him to threaten our upper left group, because it threatens to kill more easily as it runs southward.

[Dusk Eagle] I feel lost in this situation. I'll propose probing at ''e''. If he defends on the right, we can drop down to J18 in response to him playing H18. If he defends on the left, we have gained the aji of cutting through his stones on the right.

[JoazBanbeck] Playing at 'e' is too slow IMHO. See diagram 38.E.1. I think we need 'a' or 'b' or 'c'.

[Dusk Eagle] I think we need to add a move to the top side, since white got the coveted 3-3 point. Our group on the left can still escape along the left even after 38.E.1.

[Kirby] I agree with Dusk Eagle that our group will probably survive after 38.E.1, but it'd be too bad to lose out on the chance to split white and attack him. On the other hand, it is hard to attack the top white group severely, since white has forcing moves against the black group on the top. I'm also at a loss. We need to decide on something, though, so I'll vote 0.5 for 'e', and 0.5 for 'a'.

[daniel the smith] 1.0 for ''e''.

[JoazBanbeck] I think that 'e' is aji-keshi, and it strenghthens his top group which weakens the effectiveness of moves like 'b'. I'll support any of 'a', 'b', or 'c'. But eventually we must play 'b'.

To be precise, my vote is negative one against 'e'.

[daniel the smith] I guess that means that DE gets to pick the next move!

[Dusk Eagle] I'm also voting ''e''.

[Kirby] I guess I'll switch to 1.0 for 'e'.

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Offline Magicwand
 Post subject: Re: Gang Malkovich 1: Magicwand vs the Gang of Five
Post #145 Posted: Wed May 04, 2011 6:15 am 
Tengen
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OGS: magicwand
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm38 Prisoners: B 1, W 0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X X X X . X . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X O X O . . X . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . O O O X O . . O . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O O . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . X . . . . . . . X . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . W . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


i see a little hole size of a pinhead. if i can take advantage of this flow then i will be ahead for sure.
IMO black should have jump a or b.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm38 Prisoners: B 1, W 0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X X X X . X . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X O X O . . . . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . O O O X O . . O . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O O . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . X . . . . . . . X . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . a . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . b . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


below is what i expect to happen.(in sente)
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm38 Prisoners: B 1, W 0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X X X X . X . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X O X O . . X . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . O O O X O . . O . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O O . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . X . . . . . . . X . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . 1 W . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . 2 . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

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Offline Joaz Banbeck
 Post subject: Re: Gang Malkovich 1: Magicwand vs the Gang of Five
Post #146 Posted: Wed May 04, 2011 7:44 am 
Judan
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To observers:
I tried to warn them about this move. :grumpy:

Quote:
...

[JoazBanbeck] Playing at 'e' is too slow IMHO. See diagram 38.E.1. I think we need 'a' or 'b' or 'c'.
...

[JoazBanbeck] I think that 'e' is aji-keshi, and it strenghthens his top group which weakens the effectiveness of moves like 'b'. I'll support any of 'a', 'b', or 'c'. But eventually we must play 'b'.
...

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Diagram 38.E.1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . x d . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X X X X . X . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X O X O . . 1 . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . O O O X O . . O . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O O . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . X . . . . . . . X . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . 3 2 b . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . f . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . c a . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . g . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


[JoazBanbeck] I think that we have to do something about our left side group....

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Offline daniel_the_smith
 Post subject: Re: Gang Malkovich 1: Magicwand vs the Gang of Five
Post #147 Posted: Thu May 05, 2011 12:41 pm 
Gosei
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm40 Prisoners: B 1, W 0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X X X X . X . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X O X O . . X . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . O O O X O . . O . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O O . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . X . . . . . . . X . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]



=== Discussion for black 40 ===

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm40 Prisoners: B 1, W 0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X X X X . X . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X O X O . . X . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . O O O X O . z O . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O O . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . X . . . . . . . X . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . b O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X a . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


[daniel the smith]: I propose ''a''. Now that we can push through at ''z'' I don't think our two stones are important.

[Kirby] I disagree that the two stones aren't that important as they separate white, but I don't see a good alternative. I'll vote 1.0 for 'a'.

[JoazBanbeck] I disagree that the two stones aren't that important as they separate white, but I don't see a good alternative. I'll vote 1.0 for 'a'.

[Dusk Eagle] It may be heavy, but I'm going to vote ''b'' to save our two stones. I think it's better than the alternative of giving them up.

[daniel the smith] @Joaz: Lol. Ok, I vote 1.0 for ''a'' also, so I'll play that in a bit unless someone beats me to it.

%%%%

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Diagram 40.A.1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X X X X . X . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X O X O . . X . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . O O O X O . . O . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O O . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . O 4 X 6 . . . . . . X . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . 3 2 O 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O O . 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


[daniel the smith] This looks so good for us that I think MW will not play it.

[JoazBanbeck] This looks so good for MW that I think he will play it.

%%%%

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Diagram 40.A.2
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X X X X . X . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X O X O . . X . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . O O O X O . . O . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O O . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . X . . . . . . . X . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . 3 . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


[daniel the smith] This looks great to me, also.

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Offline Magicwand
 Post subject: Re: Gang Malkovich 1: Magicwand vs the Gang of Five
Post #148 Posted: Thu May 05, 2011 12:53 pm 
Tengen
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that was fast :)
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm40 Prisoners: B 1, W 0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X X X X . X . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X O X O . . X . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . O O O X O . . O . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O O . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . X . . . . . . . X . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X X 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

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Offline Tooveli
 Post subject: Re: Gang Malkovich 1: Magicwand vs the Gang of Five
Post #149 Posted: Thu May 05, 2011 2:31 pm 
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Black's last move may have been the frist one since around move 18 where I would have played the same. This has been a weird game.
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Offline Joaz Banbeck
 Post subject: Re: Gang Malkovich 1: Magicwand vs the Gang of Five
Post #150 Posted: Sat May 07, 2011 3:32 pm 
Judan
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I think that the idea of 'gang malkovich' may be a failure. ( I'm not being negative when I say that. I half expected it. It, like other malkovich variations, was an experiment. If I can learn something from them, I'm happy. If they are successful and others enjoy them AND I learn something, I'm delighted. )

One of the five original participants dropped out early. Two more make token appearances. So only two of us remain to really contribute. And I'm finding it hard to do so. It has become like work. I only continue because I feel that I ought to since I started it.

I guess that the problem is that it lacks a personal feel that go games usually have. It is no longer 'my' game. Many of the moves were ones that I would not have chosen. While I can intellectually appreciate the virtues of those moves, they don't feel like 'my' moves.

How about the other four of you? Is it basically not a workable idea? Or was it a good idea but just being undermined by people's mis-aligned schedules?

And the final question: do we want to continue?

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Offline Dusk Eagle
 Post subject: Re: Gang Malkovich 1: Magicwand vs the Gang of Five
Post #151 Posted: Sat May 07, 2011 8:00 pm 
Gosei
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It started off fun and interesting, but after a little while it has lost a lot of its luster. I think you captured it best when you said,
Joaz wrote:
I guess that the problem is that it lacks a personal feel that go games usually have. It is no longer 'my' game. Many of the moves were ones that I would not have chosen. While I can intellectually appreciate the virtues of those moves, they don't feel like 'my' moves.

That lack of personal investment in the game makes it hard for me to keep interested over long periods of time.

I do think it is an interesting concept, and it seems to reveal how differently we all understand the game. I think I can also say that Magicwand is stronger than the five of us working together :). But now, I feel I'm only continuing to contribute out of obligation, and would be fine with stopping.

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Offline Kirby
 Post subject: Re: Gang Malkovich 1: Magicwand vs the Gang of Five
Post #152 Posted: Sat May 07, 2011 8:12 pm 
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I vote 0.5 for resigning, and 0.5 for not resigning.

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Offline daniel_the_smith
 Post subject: Re: Gang Malkovich 1: Magicwand vs the Gang of Five
Post #153 Posted: Sun May 08, 2011 12:07 pm 
Gosei
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I enjoyed the experiment. I think it's difficult because it requires so much effort to communicate between team members, it's time-consuming, which is why I only checked the sensei's page once per day if that. So, let's resign.

...Also, I want to read Magicwand's commentary ^^

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Offline Joaz Banbeck
 Post subject: Re: Gang Malkovich 1: Magicwand vs the Gang of Five
Post #154 Posted: Sun May 08, 2011 12:43 pm 
Judan
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Ok, I think we have a majority.

@MW: We resign. Thanks for the game. Sorry that it didn't work as I was hoping.

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Offline daniel_the_smith
 Post subject: Re: Gang Malkovich 1: Magicwand vs the Gang of Five
Post #155 Posted: Sun May 08, 2011 1:26 pm 
Gosei
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Magicwand wrote:
for obs:
this is what i would have played.
can you see that black is riding the rhythm?
what they played is not what i expected from dan level players.
i guess 5 low dans = kyu level
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B Prisoners:
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X X X X . X . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X O X O . . , 1 2 . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . O O O X O . . . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O O . . 3 . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . X . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Looking back, I am astonished that we didn't play this, it's so obvious...

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Offline Bantari
 Post subject: Re: Gang Malkovich 1: Magicwand vs the Gang of Five
Post #156 Posted: Sun May 08, 2011 1:32 pm 
Gosei
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Kirby wrote:
I think DuskEagle meant to post this:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm38 Prisoners: B 1, W 0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X X X X . X . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X O X O . . B . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . O O O X O . . O . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O O . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . X . . . . . . . X . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

=== Discussion for black 38 ===

$$Bcm38 Prisoners: B 1, W 0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . x d . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X X X X . X . . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X O X O . . e . . . X . X . . . |
$$ | . . O O O X O . . O . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X O O . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . X . . . . . . . X . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . b . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . c a . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------

[Kirby] When I put my attacking cap on, I want to play 'a' to threaten to connect. If white blocks, then I want to jump out around 'b' to split white apart, and start causing some damage. However, I am somewhat worried about the health of our group on the top. I am worried about white's potential to take away eyespace. For example, Diagram 38.A.1, below...

[JoazBanbeck] I like 'a'. See diagram 38.A.2 below. I like 'c' for the same reason. ( How do we develop the group in the lower left after we play 'a', and he blocks at C9? I like 'c' better when I think of follow-up moves. )

I could really like 'd' if someone could show me that 'x' kills if he tenukis.

[Kirby] Your sequence is convincing to me. If we play something like 'a', It's also possible that white tenukis, and then we'd have to respond to get two eyes (see diagrams).

[daniel the smith] Didn't we determine a while ago that this white move threatens to kill our stones on top?

[JoazBanbeck] Not that I recall. I think that some gang members claimed that it was so, while others - such as myself - remained uncertain. ( Perhaps we didn't have E11 at the time. That would have made escape by white easy. )

BTW, the sooner we play 'b', the harder it is for him to threaten our upper left group, because it threatens to kill more easily as it runs southward.

[Dusk Eagle] I feel lost in this situation. I'll propose probing at ''e''. If he defends on the right, we can drop down to J18 in response to him playing H18. If he defends on the left, we have gained the aji of cutting through his stones on the right.

[JoazBanbeck] Playing at 'e' is too slow IMHO. See diagram 38.E.1. I think we need 'a' or 'b' or 'c'.

[Dusk Eagle] I think we need to add a move to the top side, since white got the coveted 3-3 point. Our group on the left can still escape along the left even after 38.E.1.

[Kirby] I agree with Dusk Eagle that our group will probably survive after 38.E.1, but it'd be too bad to lose out on the chance to split white and attack him. On the other hand, it is hard to attack the top white group severely, since white has forcing moves against the black group on the top. I'm also at a loss. We need to decide on something, though, so I'll vote 0.5 for 'e', and 0.5 for 'a'.

[daniel the smith] 1.0 for ''e''.

[JoazBanbeck] I think that 'e' is aji-keshi, and it strenghthens his top group which weakens the effectiveness of moves like 'b'. I'll support any of 'a', 'b', or 'c'. But eventually we must play 'b'.

To be precise, my vote is negative one against 'e'.

[daniel the smith] I guess that means that DE gets to pick the next move!

[Dusk Eagle] I'm also voting ''e''.

[Kirby] I guess I'll switch to 1.0 for 'e'.

I cannot shake the feeling... what a CRAPPY move. No offense. ;)

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Offline mw42
 Post subject: Re: Gang Malkovich 1: Magicwand vs the Gang of Five
Post #157 Posted: Sun May 08, 2011 2:11 pm 
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Bantari wrote:
I cannot shake the feeling... what a CRAPPY move. No offense. ;)



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Offline Kirby
 Post subject: Re: Gang Malkovich 1: Magicwand vs the Gang of Five
Post #158 Posted: Sun May 08, 2011 4:30 pm 
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daniel_the_smith wrote:
... it's time-consuming, which is why I only checked the sensei's page once per day if that...


I wonder if there would have been more communication if the dialog had been held on L19. I suppose that we would have had more clutter in that case, though.

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Offline Magicwand
 Post subject: Re: Gang Malkovich 1: Magicwand vs the Gang of Five
Post #159 Posted: Wed May 11, 2011 5:42 am 
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Joaz Banbeck wrote:
Ok, I think we have a majority.

@MW: We resign. Thanks for the game. Sorry that it didn't work as I was hoping.


i would like to play you 1-1 with 2 stone handy if you agree.
hopefully this will prove my feeling of how strong others are.

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Offline Mnemonic
 Post subject: Re: Gang Malkovich 1: Magicwand vs the Gang of Five
Post #160 Posted: Fri May 13, 2011 2:54 am 
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Questions to the participants:

1) Do you think the main problem was communication and that this style could be successful if you could communicate better? You could e.i. play a game on a server with unlimited time and talk about it using Skype or teamspeak. Do you think this approach would work?

2) A lot of you seem to feel the one big problem was that you couldn't play "your" game. We have 2 Teamovich going on where you have similar problems (the game evolves radically different from what you expect/want) but it seems the Teamovich idea is a resounding success with the players. Would you feel more comfortable is you played a Teamovich against Magicwand? Do you think there is a significant difference between a Teamovich and the Gang Malkovich Idea?

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