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Zen Malkovich #1: Nikolas73 (6k) Fwiffo (4k) Harleqin (2d) http://www.lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=38&t=448 |
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Author: | fwiffo [ Thu May 06, 2010 7:10 pm ] |
Post subject: | Zen Malkovich #1: Nikolas73 (6k) Fwiffo (4k) Harleqin (2d) |
As discussed in the signup thread, we'll be starting a game of Zen Go, Malkovich style. Players: Nikolas73 (6k) Fwiffo (4k) Harleqin (2d) Nikolas, you're up first. Have fun!
My goal in this game is to get out of my comfort zone and experiment. I will play moves I think are right when there are clear correct moves, but during the opening and times when there is room for creativity, I will try to be creative. I rarely work outside my comfort zone, and this seems like an opportunity, since there is no pressure to win or avoid losing. |
Author: | mdobbins [ Fri May 07, 2010 12:59 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: Zen Malkovich #1: No |
fwiffo wrote: As discussed in the signup thread, we'll be starting a game of Zen Go, Malkovich style. Players: Nikolas73 (6k) Fwiffo (4k) Harleqin (2d) Nikolas, you're up first. Have fun!
My goal in this game is to get out of my comfort zone and experiment. I will play moves I think are right when there are clear correct moves, but during the opening and times when there is room for creativity, I will try to be creative. I rarely work outside my comfort zone, and this seems like an opportunity, since there is no pressure to win or avoid losing. A very Zen first move! |
Author: | Nikolas73 [ Fri May 07, 2010 2:39 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Zen Malkovich #1: Nikolas73 (6k) Fwiffo (4k) Harleqin (2 |
Ok, have fun everyone.
I almost always start with the 4-4 stone. Depending on White's next moves there are a lot of options: Nirensei, Sanrensei, Orthodox, etc. I should say again that this is my first Malkovich game (and first time using the diagrams here). Please let me know if I am doing something wrong... |
Author: | fwiffo [ Fri May 07, 2010 7:52 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Zen Malkovich #1: Nikolas73 (6k) Fwiffo (4k) Harleqin (2 |
Alright, I'm going to try to get 3-4 points facing each-other here. In other words, if black plays in the lower right next, I'll play D3. Or I would, if I was playing white my next turn. I could have played C4 or D3 this turn to force a parallel opening, but black would have the opportunity to choose his second corner in a way that gives him a really good approach to my 3-4. If played C4, he'd play in the lower right, and if I played D3 he would play in the upper left. This way, if he wants that kind of approach, he'll have to occupy the lower left now, forcing a diagonal opening. That's fine with me, because I rarely play one normally, and keeps with the spirit of experimentation I've wanted to bring. I also think a territorial posture is a good choice in a diagonal game because it's harder to build a large framework, so that goes well with my choice of the 3-4. |
Author: | Harleqin [ Sun May 09, 2010 6:42 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Zen Malkovich #1: Nikolas73 (6k) Fwiffo (4k) Harleqin (2 |
I like to get out of established fuseki patterns as soon as possible. This move places a lot of emphasis on the lower right corner, so a diagonal fuseki is very likely. |
Author: | Nikolas73 [ Sun May 09, 2010 7:19 pm ] |
Post subject: | Move 4 |
Taking the last corner... I considered the 3-3 or 3-4, but don't want to give too much influence to Black, especially with the position of Black's other stones (if that makes sense.. I haven't played many diagonal openings before). |
Author: | fwiffo [ Sun May 09, 2010 8:03 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Zen Malkovich #1: Nikolas73 (6k) Fwiffo (4k) Harleqin (2 |
I think that's what I might have played as white. It gives white a natural and attractive approach to my lower left stone. The simplest way to prevent that nice approach is to simply enclose the corner, which is a very high priority move anyway, following elementary opening theory. White may choose to enclose the top left, but black can then take an extension in the vicinity of C10 or D10, the favored direction for this shimari.
I think this is good for black. ![]() I also considered the high enclosure ( ![]() |
Author: | Harleqin [ Mon May 10, 2010 6:42 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: Zen Malkovich #1: Nikolas73 (6k) Fwiffo (4k) Harleqin (2 |
I think that this is the natural continuation. One can say that, two moves ago, the two possible shimari were miai. The reason that I chose the ogeima shimari is that Black has less of a continuation if he takes the left side in front of his shimari. There are now two interesting sides, upper and right, because that is where both corners are standing high. The left side is less interesting because of the low and strong ![]() ![]() |
Author: | Nikolas73 [ Mon May 10, 2010 3:42 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Zen Malkovich #1: Nikolas73 (6k) Fwiffo (4k) Harleqin (2 |
Okay, so I can see a few options/areas to play here as Black:
A seems to be the wrong side of the board; it can be developed later. B is getting closer, but is too slow and not forceful enough. C can damage the wall White might build in the future, but then White can do the same with D. I think D is b est as it almost forces White to play around E (to prevent a "double wing" formation) and then Black can take C or some other large point. D Also works well with Black's enclosure. Finally, White's enclosure can still be attacked and invaded in the future, and D may help with that. |
Author: | fwiffo [ Mon May 10, 2010 4:42 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Zen Malkovich #1: Nikolas73 (6k) Fwiffo (4k) Harleqin (2 |
This move is difficult for white. Getting an extension (K16 or K17) from the large enclosure in the upper left is important, particularly considering that this particular enclosure has a fairly loose grip on the corner and can be invaded later. It also has a nice follow-up in the form of an approach to the top right. But it's also important to prevent black getting a double wing formation, so K3 or K4 would be a very good point - it would be an extension from the 4-4 stone in the lower right. Extensions from 4-4 stones are lower priority, but it would be a dual-purpose move. But if I take away that extension, black can still get a nice box framework on the left later. Capping at E10 is going to be a priority eventually. I always feel like it's difficult for white to get the initiative in the opening, and it never seems like white can gain by going to extreme lengths to get it. There aren't any good sente moves for white this early; an approach to the top right would certainly be gote, unless it's treated as a probe. But even that could be ignored, and a probe might be premature. Likewise a probe of the enclosure in the lower left would be premature. But white can't just try to build his own framework, move after move. In that kind of game black will always be a move ahead and get the bigger half. White has to be more active and confront black. So I settle on K3, to limit black's potential there and maybe start building something from the 4-4 stone in the lower right. I picked the low move over K4 because I don't like the open skirt. If black eventually takes the short extension around H3, K4 would feel sorta awkward and floating. |
Author: | Harleqin [ Mon May 10, 2010 6:42 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Zen Malkovich #1: Nikolas73 (6k) Fwiffo (4k) Harleqin (2 |
I expect White to play the ikken tobi, then Black slides and extends. Then, White can either approach on the top side, which Black would pincer, or White simply extends, which lets Black have a kind of shimari. |
Author: | fwiffo [ Mon May 10, 2010 8:00 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Zen Malkovich #1: Nikolas73 (6k) Fwiffo (4k) Harleqin (2 |
This game seems very ordinary so far for such a strange format. |
Author: | Nikolas73 [ Mon May 10, 2010 8:04 pm ] |
Post subject: | Move 10 |
As mentioned in my last post I expected Black to play around K17, but this is interesting. I do not want to pincer Black, as that would give Black too many options to attack the bottom and right sides. So I think defending the bottom is most important. How should this be done?
I considered points A-E. A would leave a weakness around m3, and is not very secure. C also leaves Black with a lot of options to destroy White's corner and bottom area. B also leaves a weakness at m3, so D looks like the only good move to me. I also thought about E, but this leaves a bigger weakness on the bottom, and is usually only used with a sanrensei (not good with Black's enclosure in the lower left, in other words). Now, with White "D" I would expect Black to play the 3-3 or extend on the right side, after which White can play around the top side and aim at attacking Black's top-right corner. |
Author: | fwiffo [ Mon May 10, 2010 10:11 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Zen Malkovich #1: Nikolas73 (6k) Fwiffo (4k) Harleqin (2 |
I am not fond of ![]() After ![]() |
Author: | Harleqin [ Tue May 11, 2010 3:35 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: Zen Malkovich #1: Nikolas73 (6k) Fwiffo (4k) Harleqin (2 |
I am inclined to say that ![]() ![]() Compare this:
Regarding ![]() ![]() So, I just extend. If Black plays ogeima from the top right, White can stand up with ikken tobi, because that opens up the black corner and reduces the black framework. If Black plays only kogeima, White can extend back to H16. In either case, White can still invade on the right around S15. Next, I think that Black's lower left framework becomes the interesting part. |
Author: | fwiffo [ Tue May 11, 2010 7:07 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: Zen Malkovich #1: Nikolas73 (6k) Fwiffo (4k) Harleqin (2 |
This thread feels like a library. My past zen go games have been much more festive (they usually involved drinking). Are we not attracting many viewers because of the sheer number of games going on or because nothing exciting has happened yet? My game against topazg had a ton of commentary. |
Author: | Marcus [ Tue May 11, 2010 7:50 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: Zen Malkovich #1: Nikolas73 (6k) Fwiffo (4k) Harleqin (2 |
Game needs to get going before the commentary begins. So far, I have nothing to say. I hid this comment because it's fun. |
Author: | Nikolas73 [ Tue May 11, 2010 4:45 pm ] |
Post subject: | Move 13 |
fwiffo wrote: This thread feels like a library. My past zen go games have been much more festive (they usually involved drinking). Are we not attracting many viewers because of the sheer number of games going on or because nothing exciting has happened yet? My game against topazg had a ton of commentary. It seems to me like we have been playing a rather peaceful "zen" game so far ![]()
I have to say this is getting a little difficult for me; it is interesting to plan a strategy for one side and then have to counter it on the next turn. My thinking with this move is that White will respond around "A" or "B" - if B, Black still has J17 to play later. Black will also have a chance, after White's next move, to either attack White's top-right corner, expand the left side (E10?) or build the right area. White will start to develop a moyo, but it is still early in the game and Black can build large areas, too. This move also helps Black develop the right side; I think Black would be happy if White invaded the top-right at R17 and let Black build a wall. |
Author: | fwiffo [ Tue May 11, 2010 5:10 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Zen Malkovich #1: Nikolas73 (6k) Fwiffo (4k) Harleqin (2 |
These points, a-g, are the moves that come to mind. Locally, responding at a to start to connect back to the corner enclosure and take territory seems natural. But it's passive, and it doesn't really firmly connect back or take territory. Things are still open. Another territorial move, b, is a natural follow-up to ![]() There are possible invasion points for white at c, d and e. ![]() It's worth noting that both marked white stones ( ![]() ![]() |
Author: | Harleqin [ Wed May 12, 2010 4:20 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: Zen Malkovich #1: Nikolas73 (6k) Fwiffo (4k) Harleqin (2 |
The first time that it happened like I expected. ![]() White now pretty much has to invade on the right, although one could imagine S4, too---I just feel that it is too slow. White needs to take the strange position of ![]() I believe that ![]() ![]() |
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