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 Post subject: Re: Batoo(-kovich) #2: freegame vs. gaius
Post #21 Posted: Wed Jun 09, 2010 4:23 am 
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KGS: freegame
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 Score - B: 22, W: 21
$$ +-----------------------+
$$ | . . . . . p . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . W X O X . |
$$ | . . m . . . O X X O . |
$$ | . . @ . . . . O O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | p . . @ . . . . . . p |
$$ | . . . . . . . B . . . |
$$ | . . @ . . . B . . . . |
$$ | . . m . . B . . m . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . p . . . . . |
$$ +-----------------------+[/go]


my thoughts

still according to plan.
the result will be that both of us get a big territory.
the komi is largely compensated by his minus move. so the score looks close to me.
The hidden move might make the difference in this game. whoever uses it most efficiently will most likely win.

my top left is quite open. a hidden move in there might be very dangerous. If he plays his hidden move at some point I might just have to play an extra defensive move there hoping to counteract his hidden move, without knowing where it is. but I'll think about that again when he played the hidden move.

I havn't been able to take an early lead. I think the game is still close. I have more potential, but black is more solid.

I prefer the bigger board. I'm better at global play than local fighting.

black is now going to take one of my stones. I will then reconsider how to defend the cutting point. maybe I can come up with a better alternative, now that the moves are actually on the board. and I can also maybe read further into the variation.

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Author of: The Next Move a book for 15-3kyu players.

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 Post subject: Re: Batoo(-kovich) #2: freegame vs. gaius
Post #22 Posted: Wed Jun 09, 2010 4:32 am 
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EDIT: I removed the stone, and reduced white's score by one point because of it.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 Score - B: 23, W: 20
$$ +-----------------------+
$$ | . . . . . p . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O X O X . |
$$ | . . m . . . O X X . 1 |
$$ | . . @ . . . . O O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | p . . @ . . . . . . p |
$$ | . . . . . . . B . . . |
$$ | . . @ . . . B . . . . |
$$ | . . m . . B . . m . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . p . . . . . |
$$ +-----------------------+[/go]


Again, only move. If I would capture the other stone, he gets an extra sente move.

I'm somewhat surprised that he prefers this atari over the other atari. He still has a pretty nasty cutting point left but if he fixes it I can take the bottom right. OK, there will still be aji in the bottom right but anyway taking it will be big...

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 Post subject: Re: Batoo(-kovich) #2: freegame vs. gaius
Post #23 Posted: Wed Jun 09, 2010 8:03 am 
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KGS: freegame
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 Score - B: 23, W: 21
$$ +-----------------------+
$$ | . . . . . p . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O X O X . |
$$ | . . m . . . O X X . X |
$$ | . . @ . . . . O O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | p . . @ . . . . O . p |
$$ | . . . . . . . B . . . |
$$ | . . @ . . . B . . . . |
$$ | . . m . . B . . m . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . p . . . . . |
$$ +-----------------------+[/go]



defending at :b1: to defend the cut seems too weak. Like I wrote before I'm going to have another look at the situation. I can now read further ahead for this point, than i could do earlier.

I hope my move provokes a cut by black. I have spend a lot of time reading all kind of variation, and I think I can counter the cut and get a good result.
The fight will be complex but make the game interesting.

The most likely variation goes like this: (playing :w2: @ :b3: I will die really easy. I need :b4: to defend the stones on top)
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 Score - B: 23, W: 20
$$ +-----------------------+
$$ | . . . . . p . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O X O X . |
$$ | . . m . 4 . O X X . X |
$$ | . . @ . . 3 1 O O X . |
$$ | . . . . . 5 2 . . . . |
$$ | p . . @ . . . 6 O . p |
$$ | . . . . . . . B . . . |
$$ | . . @ . . . B . . . . |
$$ | . . m . . B . . m . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . p . . . . . |
$$ +-----------------------+[/go]



next it gets a lot harder to read and predict ahead, but i did give it a try. If a I still play :w2: later when I defend it is sente because of the cutting point.
after 4 black has a problem with the minus point. even if he played it I will be able to live. if he plays b i will play c. now black can defend without playing the minus point, but I still live. If he tries to kill, I will cut taking the minus point and the corner.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 Score - B: 23, W: 20
$$ +-----------------------+
$$ | . . . . . p . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O X O X . |
$$ | . . m . O . O X X . X |
$$ | . . @ . . X X O O X . |
$$ | . . . . . X O . . . . |
$$ | p . . @ . 1 a O O . p |
$$ | . . . . . . . B 2 c . |
$$ | . . @ . . . B . 3 4 . |
$$ | . . m . . B . . m b . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . p . . . . . |
$$ +-----------------------+[/go]



Black can not play this either because he will just get killed.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 Score - B: 23, W: 20
$$ +-----------------------+
$$ | . . . . . p . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O X O X . |
$$ | . . m . 4 . O X X . X |
$$ | . . @ . . 3 1 O O X . |
$$ | . . . . . 8 2 5 6 . . |
$$ | p . . @ . . . 7 O . p |
$$ | . . . . . . . B . . . |
$$ | . . @ . . . B . . . . |
$$ | . . m . . B . . m . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . p . . . . . |
$$ +-----------------------+[/go]



I think the best way for black is to play like below.
but this makes the rest of the game rather boring.
I can play b and c as follow-ups in this variation.
this gives a close game that will be decided in endgame.
but I hope he cuts and fights like the diagrams above.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 Score - B: 23, W: 20
$$ +-----------------------+
$$ | . . . . . p . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O X O X . |
$$ | . . m . . . O X X . X |
$$ | . . @ . . . . O O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | p . . @ . . c . O . p |
$$ | . . . . . . . B 1 . . |
$$ | . . @ . . . B . . . . |
$$ | . . m . . B . . m . . |
$$ | . . . b . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . p . . . . . |
$$ +-----------------------+[/go]


and then there is the risk of him playing the hidden move to try and trick me, but lets worry about that when it gets to it.

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Author of: The Next Move a book for 15-3kyu players.

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 Post subject: Re: Batoo(-kovich) #2: freegame vs. gaius
Post #24 Posted: Wed Jun 09, 2010 8:19 am 
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KGS: hopjesvla
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 Score - B: 24, W: 21
$$ +-----------------------+
$$ | . . . . . p . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O X O X . |
$$ | . . m . . . O X X . X |
$$ | . . @ . . . 1 O O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | p . . @ . . . . O . p |
$$ | . . . . . . . B . . . |
$$ | . . @ . . . B . . . . |
$$ | . . m . . B . . m . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . p . . . . . |
$$ +-----------------------+[/go]


Yet again, only move I think. Soo many weaknesses to exploit in white's shape... I am a happy person! Also, depending on the variations, there might be a hidden move coming up from me fairly soon :cool:. I don't believe you should use it too early, but if I have 3 different ways to threaten to crush him, that's a 67% chance, and I might just decide to pounce :twisted:.

I expect him to play something tricky now. But where? I have no idea. Maybe even sacrifice because it enables him to play the plus point in sente?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 Score - B: 24, W: 21
$$ +-----------------------+
$$ | . . . . . 8 . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . 9 . O X O X . |
$$ | . . m . . 7 O X X . X |
$$ | . . @ . . 5 1 O O X . |
$$ | . . . . . 6 4 . . . . |
$$ | p . . @ . . 3 2 O . p |
$$ | . . . . . . . B . . . |
$$ | . . @ . . . B . . . . |
$$ | . . m . . B . . m . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . p . . . . . |
$$ +-----------------------+[/go]


Brute forcing gets white nowhere either:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 Score - B: 24, W: 21
$$ +-----------------------+
$$ | . . . . . p . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O X O X . |
$$ | . . m . 4 . O X X . X |
$$ | . . @ . . 3 1 O O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . 2 5 . . . |
$$ | p . . @ . . . . O . p |
$$ | . . . . . . . B . . . |
$$ | . . @ . . . B . . . . |
$$ | . . m . . B . . m . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . p . . . . . |
$$ +-----------------------+[/go]

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My name is Gijs, from Utrecht, NL.

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 Post subject: Re: Batoo(-kovich) #2: freegame vs. gaius
Post #25 Posted: Wed Jun 09, 2010 8:32 am 
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KGS: hopjesvla
Nice, a fight. Bloodshed is good. I strongly believe baduk, and Batoo as well, are forms of martial arts - that's how intense the battle of the minds can become. "Never give in, never surrender" - that should be your motto while playing. And that is why I believe the cut is the only move considerable in this position. Only when you are ahead, you can back down a little; and I am certainly not that much ahead yet.

Note: this does not mean you should overplay everywhere. First get strong, then fight - and if your opponent is strong somewhere, just making sabaki can be more than enough. Useless stones should also be sacrificed! It does mean you should never settle for an inferior result if you can set up an equal fight instead - no matter how complex the fight is.

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My name is Gijs, from Utrecht, NL.

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 Post subject: Re: Batoo(-kovich) #2: freegame vs. gaius
Post #26 Posted: Wed Jun 09, 2010 9:28 am 
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KGS: freegame
let the fighting begin :D

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 Score - B: 24, W: 22
$$ +-----------------------+
$$ | . . . . . p . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O X O X . |
$$ | . . m . . . O X X . X |
$$ | . . @ . . . X O O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . W . . . . |
$$ | p . . @ . . . . O . p |
$$ | . . . . . . . B . . . |
$$ | . . @ . . . B . . . . |
$$ | . . m . . B . . m . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . p . . . . . |
$$ +-----------------------+[/go]


yay, he did cut. let the fun begin.

Now I hope I did not miss something obvious, else the game could be over rather quickly...

from here 1-4 looks like the only moves possible.
next after both a or b i will play at c.
black can not play at c, because then I will play at a

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 Score - B: 23, W: 20
$$ +-----------------------+
$$ | . . . . . p . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O X O X . |
$$ | . . m . 2 . O X X . X |
$$ | . . @ . . 1 X O O X . |
$$ | . . . . . 3 W . . . . |
$$ | p . . @ . a b 4 O . p |
$$ | . . . . . . . B c . . |
$$ | . . @ . . . B . . . . |
$$ | . . m . . B . . m . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . p . . . . . |
$$ +-----------------------+[/go]

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Author of: The Next Move a book for 15-3kyu players.

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 Post subject: Re: Batoo(-kovich) #2: freegame vs. gaius
Post #27 Posted: Thu Jun 10, 2010 3:37 am 
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KGS: hopjesvla
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 Score - B: 25, W: 22
$$ +-----------------------+
$$ | . . . . . p . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O X O X . |
$$ | . . m . . . O X X . X |
$$ | . . @ . . 1 X O O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . W . . . . |
$$ | p . . @ . . . . O . p |
$$ | . . . . . . . B . . . |
$$ | . . @ . . . B . . . . |
$$ | . . m . . B . . m . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . p . . . . . |
$$ +-----------------------+[/go]

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My name is Gijs, from Utrecht, NL.

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 Post subject: Re: Batoo(-kovich) #2: freegame vs. gaius
Post #28 Posted: Thu Jun 10, 2010 7:39 am 
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KGS: freegame
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 Score - B: 25, W: 23
$$ +-----------------------+
$$ | . . . . . p . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O X O X . |
$$ | . . m . W . O X X . X |
$$ | . . @ . . X X O O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | p . . @ . . . . O . p |
$$ | . . . . . . . B . . . |
$$ | . . @ . . . B . . . . |
$$ | . . m . . B . . m . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . p . . . . . |
$$ +-----------------------+[/go]


I still believe in my earlier thoughts.

I did thought of something that I forgot before.
this endgame variation gives black "my" plus point.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 Score - B: 25, W: 22
$$ +-----------------------+
$$ | . . . . . 5 3 . . . . |
$$ | . . . . 4 1 O X O X . |
$$ | . . m . W 2 O X X . X |
$$ | . . @ . . X X O O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | p . . @ . . . . O . p |
$$ | . . . . . . . B . . . |
$$ | . . @ . . . B . . . . |
$$ | . . m . . B . . m . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . p . . . . . |
$$ +-----------------------+[/go]

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Author of: The Next Move a book for 15-3kyu players.

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 Post subject: Re: Batoo(-kovich) #2: freegame vs. gaius
Post #29 Posted: Thu Jun 10, 2010 7:53 am 
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What do the observers think so far of the game? Remarks, questions, burning critique, it's all welcome :).

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 Score - B: 26, W: 23
$$ +-----------------------+
$$ | . . . . . p . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O X O X . |
$$ | . . m . W . O X X . X |
$$ | . . @ . . X X O O X . |
$$ | . . . . . 1 O . . . . |
$$ | p . . @ . . . . O . p |
$$ | . . . . . . . B . . . |
$$ | . . @ . . . B . . . . |
$$ | . . m . . B . . m . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . p . . . . . |
$$ +-----------------------+[/go]


The position is getting tense now, soon there could be hidden moves. Actually I am not so afraid of his hidden move because when he uses it, I will immediately scan at H11 - and at the other side he doesn't have a big choice of kill-all-moves. A few posts ago I was stating that I would now cut, but it doesn't work because white 6 is a clever move:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 Score - B: 26, W: 23
$$ +-----------------------+
$$ | . . . . . p . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O X O X . |
$$ | . . m . W . O X X . X |
$$ | . . @ . 5 X X O O X . |
$$ | . . . . 6 4 O 1 2 . . |
$$ | p . . @ . . . 3 O . p |
$$ | . . . . . . . B . . . |
$$ | . . @ . . . B . . . . |
$$ | . . m . . B . . m . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . p . . . . . |
$$ +-----------------------+[/go]


The game move is a lot stronger. No weaknesses in my shape. I like this position a lot :).

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 Post subject: Re: Batoo(-kovich) #2: freegame vs. gaius
Post #30 Posted: Thu Jun 10, 2010 8:08 am 
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KGS: freegame
gaius wrote:
What do the observers think so far of the game? Remarks, questions, burning critique, it's all welcome .

Yes, I had hoped for that as well.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 Score - B: 26, W: 24
$$ +-----------------------+
$$ | . . . . . p . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O X O X . |
$$ | . . m . O . O X X . X |
$$ | . . @ . . X X O O X . |
$$ | . . . . . X O . . . . |
$$ | p . . @ . . . W O . p |
$$ | . . . . . . . B . . . |
$$ | . . @ . . . B . . . . |
$$ | . . m . . B . . m . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . p . . . . . |
$$ +-----------------------+[/go]


it's going as expected. no time to back down now.

I'm going to start thinking about using my hidden move somewhere in this fight to try and fool my opponent.
But I'm not sure where and how yet. It must not be obvious of course.

I'm really curious about the thoughts of my opponent during this last few moves going into this fight.
I still hope i did not miss something and get tricked.

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 Post subject: Re: Batoo(-kovich) #2: freegame vs. gaius
Post #31 Posted: Thu Jun 10, 2010 9:51 am 
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KGS: hopjesvla
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 Score - B: 27, W: 24
$$ +-----------------------+
$$ | . . . . . p . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O X O X . |
$$ | . . m . O . O X X . X |
$$ | . . @ . . X X O O X . |
$$ | . . . . . X O . . . . |
$$ | p . . @ . . 1 W O . p |
$$ | . . . . . . . B . . . |
$$ | . . @ . . . B . . . . |
$$ | . . m . . B . . m . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . p . . . . . |
$$ +-----------------------+[/go]


Did he just miss this squeeze entirely? See the variation below. Laurens is a tricky player, but the game does look really difficult for him now...

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 Score - B: 26, W: 24
$$ +-----------------------+
$$ | . . . . . p . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O X O X . |
$$ | . . m . O . O X X . X |
$$ | . . @ . . X X O O X . |
$$ | . . . . . X O 2 . . . |
$$ | p . . @ 5 4 1 O O . p |
$$ | . . . . 7 6 8 B 3 . . |
$$ | . . @ . . 9 B . . . . |
$$ | . . m . . B . . m . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . p . . . . . |
$$ +-----------------------+[/go]

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 Post subject: Re: Batoo(-kovich) #2: freegame vs. gaius
Post #32 Posted: Thu Jun 10, 2010 10:12 am 
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KGS: freegame
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 Score - B: 27, W: 25
$$ +-----------------------+
$$ | . . . . . p . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O X O X . |
$$ | . . m . O . O X X . X |
$$ | . . @ . . X X O O X . |
$$ | . . . . . X O . . . . |
$$ | p . . @ . . X O O . p |
$$ | . . . . . . . B W . . |
$$ | . . @ . . . B . . . . |
$$ | . . m . . B . . m . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . p . . . . . |
$$ +-----------------------+[/go]


my thoughts
I did not think he would go for this variation, but at least it's not something unexpected.
I expected a, avoiding weakness (cutting points)

Like I wrote before I play this move to live locally.

These cutting points he just created provide some interesting options for my hidden move.
I would like him to play his hidden move first, because a hidden move is great for a comeback if need be.
If i play it and he does not, then even if I'm ahead I have to be afraid of his hidden move.

he can do a scan and a move in one turn, so he can eliminate 2 options in one move.
I think I need at least 4-5 good options for a hidden move for it to have a good enough chance to succeed.
at the moment there are only 2-3.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 Score - B: 27, W: 24
$$ +-----------------------+
$$ | . . . . . p . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O X O X . |
$$ | . . m . O . O X X . X |
$$ | . . @ . . X X O O X . |
$$ | . . . . . X O . . . . |
$$ | p . . @ . a X W O . p |
$$ | . . . . . . . B O . . |
$$ | . . @ . . . B . . . . |
$$ | . . m . . B . . m . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . p . . . . . |
$$ +-----------------------+[/go]


black has no time to take my stone.
below is what I think would happen then.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 Score - B: 27, W: 24
$$ +-----------------------+
$$ | . . . . . p . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O X O X . |
$$ | . . m . O . O X X . X |
$$ | . . @ . . X X O O X . |
$$ | . . . . . X O 1 . . . |
$$ | p . . @ . a X W O . p |
$$ | . . . . . . 3 B O . . |
$$ | . . @ . . . B 2 . . . |
$$ | . . m . . B . 4 m . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . p . . . . . |
$$ +-----------------------+[/go]

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 Post subject: Re: Batoo(-kovich) #2: freegame vs. gaius
Post #33 Posted: Thu Jun 10, 2010 11:09 am 
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For observers:

freegame wrote:
next it gets a lot harder to read and predict ahead, but i did give it a try. If a I still play :w2: later when I defend it is sente because of the cutting point.
after 4 black has a problem with the minus point. even if he played it I will be able to live. if he plays b i will play c. now black can defend without playing the minus point, but I still live. If he tries to kill, I will cut taking the minus point and the corner.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 Score - B: 23, W: 20
$$ +-----------------------+
$$ | . . . . . p . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O X O X . |
$$ | . . m . O . O X X . X |
$$ | . . @ . . X X O O X . |
$$ | . . . . . X O . . . . |
$$ | p . . @ . 1 a O O . p |
$$ | . . . . . . . B 2 c . |
$$ | . . @ . . . B . 3 4 . |
$$ | . . m . . B . . m b . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . p . . . . . |
$$ +-----------------------+[/go]


Black doesn't need to play the minus point, right? I guess this gives more options for hidden moves later, though.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 Score - B: 23, W: 20
$$ +-----------------------+
$$ | . . . . . p . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O X O X . |
$$ | . . m . O . O X X . X |
$$ | . . @ . . X X O O X . |
$$ | . . . . . X O 8 . 0 . |
$$ | p . . @ . 9 1 O O . p |
$$ | . . . . . . . B 2 6 . |
$$ | . . @ . . . B . 3 4 . |
$$ | . . m . . B . . m 5 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . 7 . . |
$$ | . . . . . p . . . . . |
$$ +-----------------------+[/go]


Edit: I misread freegame's word "without" in the above, obviously.

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 Post subject: Re: Batoo(-kovich) #2: freegame vs. gaius
Post #34 Posted: Fri Jun 11, 2010 2:05 am 
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KGS: hopjesvla
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 Score - B: 28, W: 25
$$ +-----------------------+
$$ | . . . . . p . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O X O X . |
$$ | . . m . O . O X X . X |
$$ | . . @ . . X X O O X . |
$$ | . . . . . X O . . . . |
$$ | p . . @ . . X O O . p |
$$ | . . . . . . . B W . . |
$$ | . . @ . . . B . 1 . . |
$$ | . . m . . B . . m . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . p . . . . . |
$$ +-----------------------+[/go]


The move he played seems to be the only move he has, and now the timing is quite subtle. I can choose between two sequences now. Because both begin with the same move, I will just play it now and make my choice later. Things that I will have to consider are:
- Which sequence is best for points?
- Which sequence leaves less ko threats in my shape and more in his shape? (as we both have hidden moves left)

"What will he do next?" - "See it next time on As the Malkovich Game turns!"

OPTION 1: The double hane of 3 seems crushing, but he has a way out by connecting immediately - I believe this is the only timing that works for him, it makes miai of living and cutting. The end result is given below:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 nice timing for white
$$ +-----------------------+
$$ | . . . . . p . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O X O X . |
$$ | . . m . O . O X X . X |
$$ | . . @ . . X X O O X . |
$$ | . . . . . X O 4 . . . |
$$ | p . . @ . . X O O . p |
$$ | . . . . . . . B W . . |
$$ | . . @ . . . B . 1 2 . |
$$ | . . m . . B . . m 3 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . p . . . . . |
$$ +-----------------------+[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 continuation, later the plus point is sente
$$ +-----------------------+
$$ | . . . . . p . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O X O X . |
$$ | . . m . O . O X X . X |
$$ | . . @ . . X X O O X . |
$$ | . . . . . X O O . 4 b |
$$ | p . . @ . 1 X O O . a |
$$ | . . . . . . . B W 2 . |
$$ | . . @ . . . B . X O . |
$$ | . . m . . B . 3 m X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . p . . . . . |
$$ +-----------------------+[/go]


OPTION 2: I could capture at 1 but it's not sente - he will simply take a corner. Something like this will be the result:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1
$$ +-----------------------+
$$ | . . . . . p . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O X O X . |
$$ | . . m . O . O X X . X |
$$ | . . @ . . X X O O X . |
$$ | . . . . . X O 1 3 . . |
$$ | p . . @ . . X O O . p |
$$ | . . . . . . . B W . . |
$$ | . . @ . . . B . 2 . . |
$$ | . . m . . B . 4 m . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . p . . . . . |
$$ +-----------------------+[/go]


BUT - option 2 can be improved! In regular go, pushing first before capturing would be really ugly. But with the minus and plus points where they are, this would actually work quite nicely:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1
$$ +-----------------------+
$$ | . . . . . p . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O X O X . |
$$ | . . m . O . O X X . X |
$$ | . . @ . . X X O O X . |
$$ | . . . . . X O 3 5 . . |
$$ | p . . @ . . X O O . 7 |
$$ | . . . . . . . B W . . |
$$ | . . @ . . . B . 1 2 . |
$$ | . . m . . B . . m 4 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . 6 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . p . . . . . |
$$ +-----------------------+[/go]

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 Post subject: Re: Batoo(-kovich) #2: freegame vs. gaius
Post #35 Posted: Fri Jun 11, 2010 7:14 am 
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KGS: freegame
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 Score - B: 28, W: 26
$$ +-----------------------+
$$ | . . . . . p . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O X O X . |
$$ | . . m . O . O X X . X |
$$ | . . @ . . X X O O X . |
$$ | . . . . . X O . . . . |
$$ | p . . @ . . X O O . p |
$$ | . . . . . . . B O . . |
$$ | . . @ . . . B . X W . |
$$ | . . m . . B . . m . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . p . . . . . |
$$ +-----------------------+[/go]


my thoughts
still according to earlier diagrams.

if white plays at 1 capturing a stone,
I will be forced to play the minus point.
but I think I get enough compensation in the black corner to
make this a good exchange for white. so I do not expect black to
play this way. It's just something to think about.
trying to cover all possibilities and not forget a variation
that might give me a bad result.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 Score - B: 28, W: 26
$$ +-----------------------+
$$ | . . . . . p . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O X O X . |
$$ | . . m . O . O X X . X |
$$ | . . @ . . X X O O X . |
$$ | . . . . . X O 1 . . . |
$$ | p . . @ . . X O O . p |
$$ | . . . . . . . B O . . |
$$ | . . @ . . . B 3 X W . |
$$ | . . m . . B . . 2 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . 4 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . p . . . . . |
$$ +-----------------------+[/go]

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 Post subject: Re: Batoo(-kovich) #2: freegame vs. gaius
Post #36 Posted: Fri Jun 11, 2010 7:50 am 
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KGS: hopjesvla
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 Score - B: 29, W: 25
$$ +-----------------------+
$$ | . . . . . p . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O X O X . |
$$ | . . m . O . O X X . X |
$$ | . . @ . . X X O O X . |
$$ | . . . . . X . 1 . . . |
$$ | p . . @ . . X O O . p |
$$ | . . . . . . . B O . . |
$$ | . . @ . . . B . X W . |
$$ | . . m . . B . . m . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . p . . . . . |
$$ +-----------------------+[/go]


Both options in the previous post are very very close. I chose this one because it leaves me just slightly more solid. I intend to use my hidden move immediately after the sequence shown in the previous post:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 Possibilities >:->
$$ +-----------------------+
$$ | . . . . . p . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . h . O X O X . |
$$ | . . m h O . O X X . X |
$$ | . . @ . . X X O O X . |
$$ | . . h h . X O 3 5 . . |
$$ | p . . @ . . X O O . 7 |
$$ | . . h h . . . B W 8 . |
$$ | . . @ . . . B . 1 2 . |
$$ | . . m . . B . . h 4 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . 6 h . . |
$$ | . . . . . p . . . . . |
$$ +-----------------------+[/go]

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When in doubt, play the most aggressive move

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 Post subject: Re: Batoo(-kovich) #2: freegame vs. gaius
Post #37 Posted: Fri Jun 11, 2010 9:54 am 
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KGS: freegame
Atari :!:
I took a 5 point penalty, but got an extra move on the board so i subtracted 4 points from my previous score. Is this correct?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 Score - B: 29, W: 21
$$ +-----------------------+
$$ | . . . . . p . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O X O X . |
$$ | . . m . O . O X X . X |
$$ | . . @ . . X X O O X . |
$$ | . . . . . X . 1 . . . |
$$ | p . . @ . . X O O . p |
$$ | . . . . . . . B O . . |
$$ | . . @ . . . B . X O . |
$$ | . . m . . B . . W . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . p . . . . . |
$$ +-----------------------+[/go]


hmmm, he did go for taking my stone. I had not expected this. I'm going to be careful and read some stuff again before playing my move.

obviously :b1: is the only move for black. after that I have several options.

my earlier variation does not work. after 9 I just die

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 Score - B: 29, W: 21
$$ +-----------------------+
$$ | . . . . . p . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O X O X . |
$$ | . . m . O . O X X . X |
$$ | . . @ . . X X O O X . |
$$ | . . . . . X . 1 . . . |
$$ | p . . @ . . X O O 4 p |
$$ | . . . . . . . B O 3 6 |
$$ | . . @ . . . B 1 X O . |
$$ | . . m . . B . 8 W 5 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . 2 7 9 . |
$$ | . . . . . p . . . . . |
$$ +-----------------------+[/go]


but there are other options

Maybe I also need to take into account the plus point.
now I took a minus point it would be nice to get a plus point to compensate.
this looks not bad at all.

a is another move I want to play, but that gives black the plus point.
because I just took a minus point this seems to be a bad idea

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 Score - B: 29, W: 21
$$ +-----------------------+
$$ | . . . . . p . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O X O X . |
$$ | . . m . O . O X X . X |
$$ | . . @ . . X X O O X . |
$$ | . . . . . X . 1 . . . |
$$ | p . . @ . . X O O 2 p |
$$ | . . . . . . . B O . . |
$$ | . . @ . . . B 1 X O . |
$$ | . . m . . B . . W . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . a . |
$$ | . . . . . p . . . . . |
$$ +-----------------------+[/go]



playing 2 immediately looks bad.
the cutting points at a and b allows black to kill my filled triangle shape.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 Score - B: 29, W: 21
$$ +-----------------------+
$$ | . . . . . p . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . O X O X . |
$$ | . . m . O . O X X . X |
$$ | . . @ . . X X O O X . |
$$ | . . . . . X . 1 . . . |
$$ | p . . @ . . X O O . 2 |
$$ | . . . . . . . B O b . |
$$ | . . @ . . . B 1 X O . |
$$ | . . m . . B . . W a . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . p . . . . . |
$$ +-----------------------+[/go]


all things considered I'm not as happy about the result as I thought I would be.
still an even game though, but I had hoped to take the lead.


I have a question about the rules.
If a player loses a base stone he also loses the 5 points this stone is worth.
but, if a player loses a stone that had been played on a plus point would this lose him the 5 point bonus?
if not in endgame you can play a move at a plus point inside your opponents territory to gain points.
this would change the game quite a bit.

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 Post subject: Re: Batoo(-kovich) #2: freegame vs. gaius
Post #38 Posted: Fri Jun 11, 2010 10:08 am 
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freegame wrote:
I have a question about the rules.
If a player loses a base stone he also loses the 5 points this stone is worth.
but, if a player loses a stone that had been played on a plus point would this lose him the 5 point bonus?
if not in endgame you can play a move at a plus point inside your opponents territory to gain points.
this would change the game quite a bit.


My understanding is that you lose the bonus, but that your opponent doesn't then get it (i.e. it's not that the point itself is worth 5 points, it's that the first stone played there gains some special status). It's still good to play on the plus point inside your opponent's territory because you're depriving him of the bonus, just not as good as it would have been if it were a disputed point as you won't get the bonus.

Edit: Sorry, this appears to be wrong.


Last edited by prokofiev on Fri Jun 11, 2010 10:23 am, edited 1 time in total.
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 Post subject: Re: Batoo(-kovich) #2: freegame vs. gaius
Post #39 Posted: Fri Jun 11, 2010 10:11 am 
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I'm not sure, though, whether your score increases by 5 or by 6 when you play a plus point. That is, do you get a point for placing a stone in addition to the 5 points or not?

Edit: I just watched http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bizg-unJNec&sns=em on youtube and, per that game:

1) You get 6 points when you play on a plus point (one for the stone, plus 5 point bonus).

2) You keep the 5 point bonus no matter what (go to the very end: black would have gotten only 86 points if he lost the bonus). You'll lose the one point if your stone is in the opponent's territory, but not the 5 point bonus.

This means my previous post was entirely wrong. Sorry!

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 Post subject: Re: Batoo(-kovich) #2: freegame vs. gaius
Post #40 Posted: Fri Jun 11, 2010 12:03 pm 
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KGS: freegame
thanks for sorting it out for us.
I hoped that it would be like in your first post... :cry:

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