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 Post subject: Batoo(-kovich) #2: freegame vs. gaius
Post #1 Posted: Thu Jun 03, 2010 7:57 am 
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Let the second Batoo-kovich game begin! This time it will be an all-Dutch encounter between myself and freegame. It will also be my first Batoo game ever, though I have seen a few nice pro-games online. Good luck Laurens, and don't be too sneaky :twisted:

My base:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ +-----------------------+
$$ | . . . . . , . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . , . . . . . , . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | , . . . . . . . . . , |
$$ | . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . X . . . . |
$$ | . . , . . X . . , . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . , . . . . . |
$$ +-----------------------+[/go]


Without having ever played Batoo, I will stick with a typical "professional" base. It consists of only kosumis (as almost all pro's seem to do) - this is because the base stones are worth 5 points each, so I don't want to be faced with having to sacrifice one. Some basic ideas that I will try to follow are posted in viewtopic.php?p=11526#p11526. But mostly, I believe Batoo is a combination of hardcore reading, solid play, very solid endgame counting, and a bit of luck. Hopefully Lady Luck will be on my side this game :)

I know freegame is a Dutch tournament player who recently got promoted to 1 dan. I have never played against him in a tournament, but I have heard that he plays quite strongly. I'm not the weakest 1 kyu in the world myself, but this will certainly not be an easy game for me to win. Then again, this is a new game, there will be some luck involved, and I believe I am not much weaker than him anyway, so I fancy my chances as well.

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 Post subject: Re: Batoo(-kovich) #2: freegame vs. gaius
Post #2 Posted: Thu Jun 03, 2010 8:11 am 
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It's also my first Batoo game. I watched only two short movies about it. It does sound fun So I'll give it a try.

Here we Go...
Have a good game gaius.

my base:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ +-----------------------+
$$ | . . . . . , . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . , . . . . . , . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | , . . O . . . . . . , |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . , . . . . . , . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . , . . . . . |
$$ +-----------------------+[/go]


my thoughts:
I do not have much of a clue as what to do.
From what I understood you need to keep your base stones close together.
Assuming my opponent did so and claimed a corner with his base,
I will try to take a whole side, hoping this to me more efficient.
With one move I can now claim a corner as well. I can decide which corner depending on the base of my opponent.
This also basically gives me one of the + points for free.


*edit: @ gaius, I think you can now have a look at my base and put up a starting position and score?
I have not played any malkovich game, so i'm not very familliar with how this works, but I guess I'll figure it out soon enough :)

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Last edited by freegame on Thu Jun 03, 2010 8:16 am, edited 1 time in total.
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 Post subject: Re: Batoo(-kovich) #2: freegame vs. gaius
Post #3 Posted: Thu Jun 03, 2010 8:15 am 
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OK, then this will be the initial position:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ +-----------------------+
$$ | . . . . . , . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . , . . . . . , . . |
$$ | . . W . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | , . . W . . . . . . , |
$$ | . . . . . . . B . . . |
$$ | . . W . . . B . . . . |
$$ | . . , . . B . . , . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . , . . . . . |
$$ +-----------------------+[/go]


My komi bet:
6 points


Thoughts:
Aah, he played keima's. That might lead to some interesting aji much later in the game :D. Anyway, there is nothing particularly urgent in this position, so 6 points feels like an appropriate komi here.

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 Post subject: Re: Batoo(-kovich) #2: freegame vs. gaius
Post #4 Posted: Thu Jun 03, 2010 8:25 am 
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ +-----------------------+
$$ | . . . . . , . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . , . . . . . , . . |
$$ | . . W . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | , . . W . . . . . . , |
$$ | . . . . . . . B . . . |
$$ | . . W . . . B . . . . |
$$ | . . , . . B . . , . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . , . . . . . |
$$ +-----------------------+[/go]


score:
gaius: 15 freegame: 15


Bidding for komi is weird, but I would like to see how this works in real Go as well.

my komi bid
7


my thoughts
He indeed took a corner.
I'm quite happy with my base.
Now I need to decide a komi bid. I think it should be something around 6-9 points.

I like my base, so I can make a low bid taking his bid in points to have an early point advantage.
I can also make a relatively high bid because I like my starting position. I will then get an even better board position because of the first move advantage, but I will be behind on points.

I will be happy to give 7 points and play first, and I will also be happy to take 7 points and let him go first.
I guess I'll bet 7 points then ;-)

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 Post subject: Re: Batoo(-kovich) #2: freegame vs. gaius
Post #5 Posted: Thu Jun 03, 2010 8:30 am 
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Congratulations, you may begin!

Hmmm... The top side is kind of big, maybe 7 or even 8 points would have been a better komi bet. So hard to say! Anyway, another reason why I think his keima's are not so great is that later on in the game, I might get to use my hidden move there - and he will risk not only having a nasty saw through his keima's but also he will risk the 5 points from his base stones.

That being said, his keima's do kind of neutralise the power exerted by my base stones. So I would say the game is still quite balanced.

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 Post subject: Re: Batoo(-kovich) #2: freegame vs. gaius
Post #6 Posted: Thu Jun 03, 2010 8:32 am 
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The board, now including score and komi (to be updated at every move):

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 Score - B: 22, W: 15
$$ +-----------------------+
$$ | . . . . . , . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . , . . . . . , . . |
$$ | . . W . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | , . . W . . . . . . , |
$$ | . . . . . . . B . . . |
$$ | . . W . . . B . . . . |
$$ | . . , . . B . . , . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . , . . . . . |
$$ +-----------------------+[/go]

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 Post subject: Re: Batoo(-kovich) #2: freegame vs. gaius
Post #7 Posted: Thu Jun 03, 2010 9:06 am 
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If you need a moderator for secret moves and scans, I volunteer. Feel free to PM me when you want to make a secret move or a scan.

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 Post subject: Re: Batoo(-kovich) #2: freegame vs. gaius
Post #8 Posted: Fri Jun 04, 2010 4:10 am 
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@ Phelan Thanks

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 Score - B: 22, W: 16
$$ +-----------------------+
$$ | . . . . . p . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . m . . . . . m . . |
$$ | . . W . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | p . . W . . . . . . p |
$$ | . . . . . . . B . . . |
$$ | . . W . . . B . . . . |
$$ | . . m . . B . . m . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . p . . . . . |
$$ +-----------------------+[/go]



my thoughts
oke, I won (or lost, depending on how you look at it) the komi bidding.
Now I get to make the first move.
like normal Go I think playing an empty corner is big.
there seems to be only 1 left, So i;m going to play around there.

I'm going for the 4-3 move because That does not only claim the corner, but limmits any extentions from the black base.


*edit
more thoughts :D
lets also think about black's next move.
I suspect he is going to break up the top creating a new group, but also splitting me.
I will then attack this stone from my just played corner, reinforcing my corner and taking points,
while chasing the black "invasion" to the center where there are not much points.

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 Post subject: Re: Batoo(-kovich) #2: freegame vs. gaius
Post #9 Posted: Fri Jun 04, 2010 4:49 am 
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 Score - B: 23, W: 16
$$ +-----------------------+
$$ | . . . . . p . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . m . . . . 1 m . . |
$$ | . . W . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | p . . W . . . . . . p |
$$ | . . . . . . . B . . . |
$$ | . . W . . . B . . . . |
$$ | . . m . . B . . m . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . p . . . . . |
$$ +-----------------------+[/go]


Thoughts:

OK, the top side was big and he played there first. But how about his shape? He now occupies 3 3-4 points. These points are adjacent to the minus points, so approaching them with an armpit nudge feels natural. If he plays the normal block, the shape is good for him, but it costs 5 points. Anyhow, I don't think he has any choice here... With all these 3-4 points, something like this might become interesting, though I don't think the game will be so calm:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 Score - B: 32, W: 5
$$ +-----------------------+
$$ | . . . . . p . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 4 3 . . . 1 2 . . |
$$ | . . W . . . . 6 O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | p . . W . . . . 5 . 9 |
$$ | . . . . . . . B . . . |
$$ | . . W . . . B . . . . |
$$ | . . 8 7 . B . . m . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . p . . . . . |
$$ +-----------------------+[/go]


White loses a lot of points like this - if it goes like this, he will have to win by 27 (!) points on the board...

By the way, with the "armpit nudge" I mean the inverse of a shoulder hit:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Armpit nudge example
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . X . . . . .
$$ | . . O . . 1 . . . . X .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ +-----------------------+[/go]

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 Post subject: Re: Batoo(-kovich) #2: freegame vs. gaius
Post #10 Posted: Fri Jun 04, 2010 6:50 am 
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KGS: freegame
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 Score - B: 23, W: 17
$$ +-----------------------+
$$ | . . . . . p . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . m . . . . X m . . |
$$ | . . W . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | p . . W . . . . . . p |
$$ | . . . . . . . B . . . |
$$ | . . W . . . B . . . . |
$$ | . . m . . B . . m . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . p . . . . . |
$$ +-----------------------+[/go]


My thoughts
hmm black played a nasty move, making use of the minus point.
I can still play it and take a penalty and get a good result.
but because I also gave komi to black I think this might give black too much points.
so I discard this for now.

My first idea is to also use this minus point to my advantage:
but the ladder is good for black and black gets the whole right.
so black might take the penalty and be happy with this result.

(black 5 @ 7 would be good for me because i get a ponnuki on the outside, but I don't get to choose.)
(Also H8 does not seem to give black much good)

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 Score - B: 23, W: 16
$$ +-----------------------+
$$ | . . . . . p . . . 6 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . 2 5 8 |
$$ | . . m . . . . 1 3 4 . |
$$ | . . W . . . . . O 7 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . 9 . . |
$$ | p . . W . . . . . . p |
$$ | . . . . . . . B . . . |
$$ | . . W . . . B . . . . |
$$ | . . m . . B . . m . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . p . . . . . |
$$ +-----------------------+[/go]


However I do get a choice between taking the corner or defending on the side,
This does give me a weak group that I don't really like.
I do have the advantage of the plus point as well as destroying the right side.
black also gets minus points. so if I do not die I think this is good for me.
I don't see how this would die.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 Score - B: 23, W: 16
$$ +-----------------------+
$$ | . . . . . p . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . 7 2 5 . |
$$ | . . m . . . . 1 3 4 . |
$$ | . . W . . . . . O 6 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | p . . W . . . . . . p |
$$ | . . . . . . . B . 8 . |
$$ | . . W . . . B . . . . |
$$ | . . m . . B . . m . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . p . . . . . |
$$ +-----------------------+[/go]


black can also counteract again using the minus point.
I would then be forced to play the minus point.
but black ends up in a really bad position so I'm not
too worried about this.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 Score - B: 23, W: 16
$$ +-----------------------+
$$ | . . . . . p . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . 2 . . |
$$ | . . m . . . . 1 4 3 . |
$$ | . . W . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | p . . W . . . . . . p |
$$ | . . . . . . . B . . . |
$$ | . . W . . . B . . . . |
$$ | . . m . . B . . m . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . p . . . . . |
$$ +-----------------------+[/go]


I'm going for the variation in the second hidden diagram.

It's way to early for a hidden move so I'm not really concidering that now.

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 Post subject: Re: Batoo(-kovich) #2: freegame vs. gaius
Post #11 Posted: Mon Jun 07, 2010 8:39 am 
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OK, back from a beautiful weekend with loads of sun. Time to get back to this game :twisted:. Sequence accepted? If so, the diagramme already has the score for both players.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 Score - B: 20, W: 18
$$ +-----------------------+
$$ | . . . . . p . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . O 3 . |
$$ | . . m . . . . X 1 2 . |
$$ | . . W . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | p . . W . . . . . . p |
$$ | . . . . . . . B . . . |
$$ | . . W . . . B . . . . |
$$ | . . m . . B . . m . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . p . . . . . |
$$ +-----------------------+[/go]


This is an interesting reply from white. At first, I wanted to leave this area as aji (with a few big ko threats that work nicely as hidden moves). But I wouldn't like it when he plays 2 in the figure below. After that, even if I protect the bottom right, the plus point is good for him and bad shape for me I think. Of course, if he plays this I can still force him to play on the minus point by playing the peep at 'b'; but it would kill my own stone and give him some extra territory in the corner. Not so nice.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 Score - B: 20, W: 18
$$ +-----------------------+
$$ | . . . . . p . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . m . . . . X m b . |
$$ | . . W . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . 2 . |
$$ | p . . W . . . . . . p |
$$ | . . . . . . . B . . . |
$$ | . . W . . . B . . . . |
$$ | . . m 1 . B . . m . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . p . . . . . |
$$ +-----------------------+[/go]



This is expected, I'm looking forward to 'a' or 'b' next. Of course my bottom right still hurts, but at least I have some solid points in the top right and he doesn't.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 Score - B: 20, W: 18
$$ +-----------------------+
$$ | . . . . . p . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . 7 O 3 . |
$$ | . . m a . . . X 1 2 5 |
$$ | . . W . . . . . O 6 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . 4 . |
$$ | p . . W . . . . . . p |
$$ | . . . . . . . B . . . |
$$ | . . W . . . B . . . . |
$$ | . . m b . B . . m . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . p . . . . . |
$$ +-----------------------+[/go]

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 Post subject: Re: Batoo(-kovich) #2: freegame vs. gaius
Post #12 Posted: Mon Jun 07, 2010 10:12 am 
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@ gaius: Looks like you peeked at my hidden thoughts. Those hidden parts are hidden for a reason... you are not supposed to read my thoughts during the game. (not even from previous posts)

Those hidden parts are for the spectators to read the thoughts of the players during the game. If you are going to read them that would allow you to dodge all my moves because they are explained in the "my thoughts" part.

Anyway, I agree with the diagram so lets continue from here WITHOUT READING EACH OTHERS HIDDEN TEXTS !

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 Score - B: 20, W: 19
$$ +-----------------------+
$$ | . . . . . p . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ | . . m . . . . X X O . |
$$ | . . W . . . . O O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | p . . W . . . . . . p |
$$ | . . . . . . . B . . . |
$$ | . . W . . . B . . . . |
$$ | . . m . . B . . m . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . p . . . . . |
$$ +-----------------------+[/go]



my thoughts
no gaius, don't look here ;-)

hmmm he aparently read my hidden thoughts. that kind of gives him an advantage to adapt. luckily he did not come up with some kind of crazy variation to destroy all my plans, but he is nicely following them. he either thought of some nasty trick for later in this variation, or maybe he is happy with the result in my previous hidden part (though I find that hard to believe). I can always use my hidden move to mess thinks up if need be, but i don't like using it too early.

anyway we skiped a few moves. I already explained my thoughts about those in my previous hidden thoughts.
I still think K8 is a good response for white in this case. If black is going to take the corner I get to K5 to destroy his corner.
this is also explained in my previous idden thoughts.

maybe black will come up with an alternative. he might want to enclose his coner because he knows it's my goal to get a move there.
This will allow me to take the corner stone and secure life for my group. however black :b1: and :b5: are great moves for black. I don't like giving them to black that easy.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 Score - B: 20, W: 18
$$ +-----------------------+
$$ | . . . . . p . . . 4 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . 3 O X 2 |
$$ | . . m 5 . . . X X O . |
$$ | . . W . . . . . O O . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | p . . W . . . . . . p |
$$ | . . . . . . . B . 1 . |
$$ | . . W . . . B . . . . |
$$ | . . m . . B . . m . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . p . . . . . |
$$ +-----------------------+[/go]


I can not play this because I get killed.
after :b9: I have to capture, black throws in and plays K6 to seal me in.
If i can not play :w4: , but have to live locally, i think it's bad for me.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 Score - B: 20, W: 18
$$ +-----------------------+
$$ | . . . . . p . 9 . 6 . |
$$ | . . . . . . 5 2 O X 7 |
$$ | . . m . 4 . 3 X X O 8 |
$$ | . . @ . . . . . O W . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | p . . @ . . . . . . p |
$$ | . . . . . . . B . 1 . |
$$ | . . @ . . . B . . . . |
$$ | . . m . . B . . m . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . p . . . . . |
$$ +-----------------------+[/go]


so I have to find another plan

maybe I can play the extension first. that most likely ends with something like this.
that gives black quite a big top right. and white is smaller and overconcentrated.

:wc: @ a does not work either because black gets to play where the :wc: stone is and split me again. That can never be good.


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 Score - B: 20, W: 18
$$ +-----------------------+
$$ | . . . . . p . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ | . . m . . . . X X O 3 |
$$ | . . @ . . . . . O 1 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . 4 2 . |
$$ | p . . @ . . . . . . p |
$$ | . . . . . . . B . W . |
$$ | . . @ . . . B . . a . |
$$ | . . m . . B . . m . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . p . . . . . |
$$ +-----------------------+[/go]


I do not see a good ladder breaker(see hidden part in previous post) either.

I can also just nobi. This gives black something to think about.
Black basically can play a, b or c. both result in a important local fight after which the rest of the game is "easy" endgame.
Not considering the hidden move, I see myself losing by 2-3 points when reading a bit deeper into this variation.
but black just took a -5 penalty, so It should be very close with me having a tiny lead.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 Score - B: 20, W: 18
$$ +-----------------------+
$$ | . . . . . p . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . c O X . |
$$ | . . m . . . b X X O . |
$$ | . . @ . . . . W O a . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | p . . @ . . . . . . p |
$$ | . . . . . . . B . . . |
$$ | . . @ . . . B . . . . |
$$ | . . m . . B . . m . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . p . . . . . |
$$ +-----------------------+[/go]



a played out:
:w4: @ a does not work because black will counter with b forcing me to capture. this is similar to the first diagrams
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 Score - B: 20, W: 18
$$ +-----------------------+
$$ | . . . . . p . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . 4 3 O X . |
$$ | . . m . . . 2 X X O 5 |
$$ | . . @ . . . 6 W O 1 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . a . |
$$ | p . . @ . . . . . . p |
$$ | . . . . . . . B . b . |
$$ | . . @ . . . B . . . . |
$$ | . . m . . B . . m . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . p . . . . . |
$$ +-----------------------+[/go]


b played out:
I can play :w6: because this time the ladder is good for me.
I like this for white, because black still needs to make life.
therefore i think black does not play this variation.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 Score - B: 20, W: 18
$$ +-----------------------+
$$ | . . . . . p . . . . . |
$$ | . . 6 . . . . . O X 4 |
$$ | . . m 5 . . 1 X X O . |
$$ | . . @ . . . . W O 2 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | p . . @ . . . . . . p |
$$ | . . . . . . . B . 3 . |
$$ | . . @ . . . B . . . . |
$$ | . . m . . B . . m . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . p . . . . . |
$$ +-----------------------+[/go]


c played out:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 Score - B: 20, W: 18
$$ +-----------------------+
$$ | . . . . . p . . 3 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . 1 O X 2 |
$$ | . . m . . 6 . X X O . |
$$ | . . @ . . . . W O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . 4 . |
$$ | p . . @ . . . . . . p |
$$ | . . . . . . . B . 5 . |
$$ | . . @ . . . B . . . . |
$$ | . . m . . B . . m . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . p . . . . . |
$$ +-----------------------+[/go]


*edit: forgot to add a point :oops:

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Last edited by freegame on Mon Jun 07, 2010 10:18 am, edited 1 time in total.
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 Post subject: Re: Batoo(-kovich) #2: freegame vs. gaius
Post #13 Posted: Mon Jun 07, 2010 10:16 am 
Gosei
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Don't assume. :-? Nothing I have read from his analysis shows that he read your thoughts.

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 Post subject: Re: Batoo(-kovich) #2: freegame vs. gaius
Post #14 Posted: Mon Jun 07, 2010 10:23 am 
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@ Phelan

hmmm then why did he suggest a sequence ? seems a bit weird, but you are right maybe he did not read it. thought there were a few other option this was one of the most obvious outcomes.
I don't really mind. It's a game for fun for the most part. but if he did read it than it's not really nice ;-)

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 Post subject: Re: Batoo(-kovich) #2: freegame vs. gaius
Post #15 Posted: Mon Jun 07, 2010 1:43 pm 
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side note:
It took maybe 2 min to decide the next move, but in that time a lot of different ideas passed by. Only when I put my thoughts in diagrams I realized that :o

I will try to keep my analysis a bit shorter next time, or do people like the long versions like the last move I made?

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 Post subject: Re: Batoo(-kovich) #2: freegame vs. gaius
Post #16 Posted: Mon Jun 07, 2010 1:47 pm 
Gosei
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Long is good. If it's worth you writing it, it's worth reading for us weaker folks.

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 Post subject: Re: Batoo(-kovich) #2: freegame vs. gaius
Post #17 Posted: Tue Jun 08, 2010 1:53 am 
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I do not read any hidden text until the game end. Blocking looked like the only move to me, therefore I put in a trigger. Enough said.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 Score - B: 21, W: 19
$$ +-----------------------+
$$ | . . . . . p . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ | . . m . . . . X X O . |
$$ | . . W . . . . O O 1 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | p . . W . . . . . . p |
$$ | . . . . . . . B . . . |
$$ | . . W . . . B . . . . |
$$ | . . m . . B . . m . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . p . . . . . |
$$ +-----------------------+[/go]


Wow, did he really think the sequence I gave was not forced? Even if he wants to make a funky tenuki (which would be strange already), he must block first. That's a basic shape: if someone pushes through your one-space extension you block first, then think - even if you then need to sacrifice something afterwards.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 Unplayable for white...
$$ +-----------------------+
$$ | . . . . . p . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . m . . . . X 1 3 . |
$$ | . . W . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | p . . W . . . . . . p |
$$ | . . . . . . . B . 2 . |
$$ | . . W . . . B . . . . |
$$ | . . m . . B . . m . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . p . . . . . |
$$ +-----------------------+[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 Must block first to create some aji.
$$ +-----------------------+
$$ | . . . . . p . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . O 3 . |
$$ | . . m . . . . X 1 2 7 |
$$ | . . W . . . . . O 5 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . 6 . |
$$ | p . . W . . . . . . p |
$$ | . . . . . . . B . 4 . |
$$ | . . W . . . B . . . . |
$$ | . . m . . B . . m . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . p . . . . . |
$$ +-----------------------+[/go]



Anyway. Let's get on with the game. He played another move I didn't anticipate. Which is fine, because I really like taking this ponnuki :). After I take it, white still has a cutting point which he needs to connect with 4 in the diagramme below. And then I can attack him with 5 which takes away his eyeshape, makes some territory, and has a reasonably logical continuation at the plus point. Can't be bad.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 Expected
$$ +-----------------------+
$$ | . . . . . p . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ | . . m . . . . X X O 3 |
$$ | . . W . . . . O O 1 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . 2 . |
$$ | p . . W . . . . 4 . p |
$$ | . . . . . . . B . 5 . |
$$ | . . W . . . B . . . . |
$$ | . . m . . B . . m . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . p . . . . . |
$$ +-----------------------+[/go]


Compare that with what I was expecting and I think it should be clear:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1 Score - B: 20, W: 18
$$ +-----------------------+
$$ | . . . . . p . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . 4 O X . |
$$ | . . m . . . . X X O 2 |
$$ | . . W . . . . . O 3 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . 1 . |
$$ | p . . W . . . . . . p |
$$ | . . . . . . . B . . . |
$$ | . . W . . . B . 5 . . |
$$ | . . m . . B . . m . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . p . . . . . |
$$ +-----------------------+[/go]

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 Post subject: Re: Batoo(-kovich) #2: freegame vs. gaius
Post #18 Posted: Tue Jun 08, 2010 10:20 am 
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 Score - B: 21, W: 20
$$ +-----------------------+
$$ | . . . . . p . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . O X . |
$$ | . . m . . . W X X O . |
$$ | . . @ . . . . O O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | p . . @ . . . . . . p |
$$ | . . . . . . . B . . . |
$$ | . . @ . . . B . . . . |
$$ | . . m . . B . . m . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . p . . . . . |
$$ +-----------------------+[/go]


my thoughts
none, he played one of the variations I already thought about.

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 Post subject: Re: Batoo(-kovich) #2: freegame vs. gaius
Post #19 Posted: Tue Jun 08, 2010 10:52 am 
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gaius wrote:
freegame wrote:
Quote:
I think scans are hidden - you just tell me if I found his hidden stone or not. If not, then that's fine too


So after a scan your opponent does not know if you fount the hidden stone or not... interesting.

I would have expected the scan and result not to be a secret.


From the pro-games I've seen, I'm reasonably certain that you are correct, and that in Batoo the scan location is open.

By the way Laurens, shall we interpret the rule that way in our game?



Oke. So, we are going to have open scans and scan results. This also allows us to handle the scans ourselves, without the need for a third party/moderator.

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 Post subject: Re: Batoo(-kovich) #2: freegame vs. gaius
Post #20 Posted: Wed Jun 09, 2010 2:15 am 
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 Score - B: 22, W: 20
$$ +-----------------------+
$$ | . . . . . p . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . 1 O X . |
$$ | . . m . . . W X X O . |
$$ | . . @ . . . . O O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | p . . @ . . . . . . p |
$$ | . . . . . . . B . . . |
$$ | . . @ . . . B . . . . |
$$ | . . m . . B . . m . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . p . . . . . |
$$ +-----------------------+[/go]


Only move.

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