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 Post subject: L19 Tourney, SoDesuNe/GoCat
Post #1 Posted: Mon Jul 05, 2010 5:55 pm 
Lives with ko
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Game here. I've added a couple comments/questions for myself. SoDesuNe, if you have any thoughts, I'd like to hear them. Anyone else, feel free to add your thoughts.



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 Post subject: Re: L19 Tourney, SoDesuNe/GoCat
Post #2 Posted: Tue Jul 06, 2010 2:42 am 
Gosei
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 Post subject: Re: L19 Tourney, SoDesuNe/GoCat
Post #3 Posted: Tue Jul 06, 2010 4:20 am 
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I am wondering what extension you are talking about. Do you perhaps imagine a black shimari on the right?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B Kie vs LovroKlc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . O . W . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . W . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


There is no shimari yet. At this point, you can simply deny the shimari.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . O . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . W . . |
$$ | . X . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O . . W . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


As long as Black has not made the shimari, the lower side is low and not so interesting.

Finishing the lower left shape with one move gives you time to go to other important points.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . W . . . O . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O . . W . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

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This post by Harleqin was liked by: Jonas
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 Post subject: Re: L19 Tourney, SoDesuNe/GoCat
Post #4 Posted: Tue Jul 06, 2010 7:53 am 
Lives with ko
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I really like this as an example of when an lower-keima is a good answer to the corner kakari on the left :)
Quote:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . W . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O . . O . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]



Furthermore I like to add to Harleqins explanations, that the marked stone (in the upper diagram) now feels low, doesnt he?
I think directly playing a high move feels much better, because you dont want to take low territory, you want to build something hugh with this wall.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . W . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O . . O . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]



Here are some quick notes regarding the game and your comments:


Move 9 is also some kind of joseki. Black plays it if he doesnt like to possible white attachment at R17. Black takes much thirdline territory, but gives White much strength in return, this is completely fine.

I think the result of the lower right battle is a success for white.Therefore black shouldnt attach with move 27, but play the iron pillar (my style).

Move 40 looks kinda slow, Black still can do something, I think taking the corner at c17 feels more important now.

I would answer Black 43 with a one-space jump at k15. All in all Black 43 already doesnt feel good, there is no potential big territory in the center so black shouldnt play g13 to strengthen White and then jump in, but should jump in directly at k14 or maybe k15.

Sry for not creating some diagrams, I'm in hurry right now, maybe I'll add some later.

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 Post subject: Re: L19 Tourney, SoDesuNe/GoCat
Post #5 Posted: Tue Jul 06, 2010 11:38 am 
Gosei
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I don't know, if I should laugh or weep about the nonsense I've thought. You're absolutely right.

Jonas
Thank you, too. As said, I almost always collapse with Moyos. I never know how big or slow defending is, where to defend to not become over-concentrated and playing on the fourth almost always feels inferior to me, when it's not a San-Ren-Sei-formation...


Long way to Shodan, it seems ^^

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 Post subject: Re: L19 Tourney, SoDesuNe/GoCat
Post #6 Posted: Tue Jul 06, 2010 11:48 am 
Gosei
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm27
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . O . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 O . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X . O . O . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Let's say that when you kicked, white responded with :w28:. Would you then go on to play the :b29: :w30: exchange?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm29
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . O . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . O . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . X X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 W O . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X . O . O . . . , . . . . . , C . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . O . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Of course not! When you see it this way, you realize that your peep at :b29: did not destroy white's shape at all, it only made him stronger. It also emphasized your own weakness in the corner at :ec:, which is one of the problems with kicking in the first place. Before the :b29: :w30: exchange, you did not have as big of a weakness at :ec:, and you also had the option of wedging right through his shape whenever you wanted. So :b29: is both aji-keshi and a move that makes your own shape weaker.

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 Post subject: Re: L19 Tourney, SoDesuNe/GoCat
Post #7 Posted: Tue Jul 06, 2010 11:58 am 
Lives with ko
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Much appreciation for all the input.

Definitely the kick at 27 was bad, and the peep worse. I definitely like Jonas's suggestion that the iron pillar would have been a nice response.

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