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Two wins by killing offered for review
http://www.lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=11102		 Page 1 of 1
Author:  Knotwilg [ Sat Nov 22, 2014 3:45 pm ]
Post subject:  Two wins by killing offered for review
I've reviewed many games here, providing advice for pak0, oca, SamT, S2X and others, but I thought it's too easy hiding in the shadows of afterthought, so here I'm exposing two games of mine, played as Artevelde, 1d on KGS. It might seem cocky to post victories but I think it can be useful to get critical comments on moves I'm happy with. The "unknown unknowns" so to speak.

I like to play a thickness game, giving me opportunities to kill groups in the middle game, or stage a favorable ko, or win in the endgame. My inspiration here is Otake Hideo, or what I think I know of him. You have to believe in something.

Here they are, fully annotated, mostly with my thoughts during the games. Any comment appreciated.
Author:  Uberdude [ Sat Nov 22, 2014 7:04 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Two wins by killing offered for review
Just 1 quick comment for now:
First game black should have jumped at m6. With his chinese stone only 1 more jump is sente for you, and then your counter pincer could end up looking rather reckless (and too close?).
Edit:
- move 46 low approach is unusual against Chinese formation: if he kicks and then knight's move your group is cramped; high approach normal.
- variation for 69 your 70 should just s7 to live, no trade. (Usually I see this shape live with one hanging connection and one descent in the corner, what are pros/cons of that? Does being on side change it as black is not short of libs to take the liberty from the descent?)
- 76 at c5?
Author:  skydyr [ Mon Nov 24, 2014 7:55 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Two wins by killing offered for review
In the first game, did you consider K3 for :w36:? It seems like it removes aji from the black stone at M4 more effectively, and white still has a decent attack, I believe.

In the second game: I'm not sure :b13: is a mistake, as black gets to develop the top left in sente. I think your assessment of direction a few moves later is correct, however.

At :w44: did you consider B5 or maybe B4? Once black tenukis as well, you could consider invading the corner directly and then playing a two space extension with the side stone, trusting in your central thickness to keep it from being attacked too strongly.

Also, at :w68: why the corner move instead of the checking extension at C12? Once it's played, at :w82:, I wonder if white could take J3 in sente against the bottom left group, and follow up with C12.
Author:  Knotwilg [ Mon Nov 24, 2014 9:44 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Two wins by killing offered for review
Hi skydyr

Thanks for your suggestions

skydyr wrote:
In the first game, did you consider K3 for :w36:? It seems like it removes aji from the black stone at M4 more effectively, and white still has a decent attack, I believe.


It might be better. It was surprising to see how much leverage Black found against my group, so the attachment diagonal was indeed perhaps not the best choice for an attack.


skydyr wrote:
In the second game: I'm not sure :b13: is a mistake, as black gets to develop the top left in sente. I think your assessment of direction a few moves later is correct, however.


I always thought Black could not play the ladder if it did not work, but should simply connect instead. Then White connects in gote too. In the game, Black gets an extra move and White gets a ponnuki instead of a connection. Now that you mention it, I agree that it is playable for Black, provided he moves to the top next and doesn't try holding my ponnuki influence in check. I'm still interested if I should take the stone like I did or engulf it in a wider fashion.

skydyr wrote:
At :w44: did you consider B5 or maybe B4? Once black tenukis as well, you could consider invading the corner directly and then playing a two space extension with the side stone, trusting in your central thickness to keep it from being attacked too strongly.


B4 is indeed the logical move for using thickness to attack. When looking at the game again I now doubt that such a long range attack was the best thing to try. I now prefer the idea of building a double moyo by playing around tengen.

skydyr wrote:
Also, at :w68: why the corner move instead of the checking extension at C12? Once it's played, at :w82:, I wonder if white could take J3 in sente against the bottom left group, and follow up with C12.


At :w68: I'm quite sure I'm doing the right thing: attacking towards thickness. However, when Black does not answer, I should probably be able to find a place to take sente and attack that group at the angle point.

Thanks again!
Author:  skydyr [ Mon Nov 24, 2014 9:56 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Two wins by killing offered for review
Knotwilg wrote:
skydyr wrote:
Also, at :w68: why the corner move instead of the checking extension at C12? Once it's played, at :w82:, I wonder if white could take J3 in sente against the bottom left group, and follow up with C12.


At :w68: I'm quite sure I'm doing the right thing: attacking towards thickness. However, when Black does not answer, I should probably be able to find a place to take sente and attack that group at the angle point.


Ah, I misunderstood your original comment as trying to help white's weakest group. I do wonder if you could take J3, have black play B3, and use that to induce white C12. The game feels at least even-ish after that. I strongly dislike the board if black takes C11 as well, instead of the opposite.
Author:  Knotwilg [ Mon Nov 24, 2014 10:13 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Two wins by killing offered for review
skydyr wrote:
I do wonder if you could take J3, have black play B3, and use that to induce white C12. The game feels at least even-ish after that. I strongly dislike the board if black takes C11 as well, instead of the opposite.


Hmm, I really don't want to take J3 and give Black B3. Yes it may induce C12 but for me B3 is the most valuable because it has a double purpose: defend with territory and reduce Black's eyespace. J3 would extend in front of thickness. C12 expands but does little against Black's top left. Later, when C12 is played, it has the additional purpose of helping my top group.

So, I'm at peace with these moves at least ;-)
Author:  Knotwilg [ Mon Nov 24, 2014 10:19 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Two wins by killing offered for review
Uberdude wrote:
Just 1 quick comment for now:
First game black should have jumped at m6. With his chinese stone only 1 more jump is sente for you, and then your counter pincer could end up looking rather reckless (and too close?).
Edit:
- move 46 low approach is unusual against Chinese formation: if he kicks and then knight's move your group is cramped; high approach normal.
- variation for 69 your 70 should just s7 to live, no trade. (Usually I see this shape live with one hanging connection and one descent in the corner, what are pros/cons of that? Does being on side change it as black is not short of libs to take the liberty from the descent?)
- 76 at c5?


Hey Uberdude, I missed the later edits.

:w46: was both technically and strategically wrong; thanks for the correction
:b69: variation - careless thinking; I thought this way during the game; your correction is obvious (and even so valuable)
:w76: at C5 - again, interesting that I missed or dismissed that move because I've really been pondering many alternatives here

Thanks
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