Life In 19x19 http://www.lifein19x19.com/ |
|
Getting back into go after 18 years http://www.lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=11565 |
Page 1 of 1 |
Author: | ystao [ Thu Mar 05, 2015 12:03 pm ] |
Post subject: | Getting back into go after 18 years |
I learned go from my dad when I was a teenager. I never participated any ranking system. My dad was amateur 3 dan in China and at the end of my high school my win rate against him was near 100% with black and ~70% with white. I haven't played a single game since college. Recently I met a friend who also plays go (first one in 18 years ![]() I posted the game yesterday in KGS sub-forum because of some bad manner move at the end of game. This post here is mostly for me to review the game and learn my mistakes. This was my second ranked game on KGS. The first one I won against a 6-7k robot and I was ranked '6k?' after that. I was auto-matched against my 4k opponent in this game and was given 2-stone handicap. ![]() ![]() ![]() after ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() White again missed and let :b116: into the center first. After :w133:, there is now a black wall in the middle and white got 10-15 points worth of territory from the thick white wall on top. White loss is now almost inevitable. :b134: was a mis-click, I meant to play K7. This would be a complicated fight in center but I don't know what would be the outcome of this fight, but black is very ahead and have few worries after settling the weakness in center. The actual fight till :b140: resulted in white easily alive. I was disappointed at :b134: mis-click but black is now >35 points ahead. :b142: another mistake, should play at D6, because of the weakness around G9. After :w147:, I needed to be careful with yose afterwards, it's only 20 point lead now. :w153: big mistake from white, need to make G8 move to connect (white F8 sente). After :b160: white not only died bigger near bottom left but also built now black wall very close to bottom center white group. Black is now again 40+ points ahead, I've won no matter what but I'm not done yet with the white K5 group. The group is now almost alive, but if black has 1 sente to cut it off from right... :b168: big yose and I was still looking for that sente. Unnecessary fight from :w169: gave black the sente needed. :b172: I would normally play at R8 and then Q8, white would lose more territory because of weakness around R14. The actual fight gave black the sente needed :b180: P7, but I probably should have played M3 before. :b188: last serious mistake from black. :w189: is sente, but both black and white missed this. I realized this soon and connected back with :b208:. After that there weren't many big yose left. White missed last chance at :w153:, I knew I won after that. The moves to kill white K5 group was just toying with my opponent. This game was unfair to my opponent to start with. I won because I read my opponent very early in the game and stuck to my game plan the whole game, he likes to fight and he lost the game by doing unnecessary fights. I made so many mistakes in the game, the 40-point mistake at ![]() |
Author: | Shaddy [ Thu Mar 05, 2015 1:28 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Getting back into go after 18 years |
Just one comment: 18 should cut, because 19 is a wonderful thick move. |
Author: | ystao [ Thu Mar 05, 2015 2:33 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Getting back into go after 18 years |
Shaddy wrote: Just one comment: 18 should cut, because 19 is a wonderful thick move. If black cut nows, white could just give up 2 stones and build a thick wall on top, (White 3 is already at high position and black still need to defend bottom left corner), black does not gain much because black is very thick in the bottom. Defend both corners are way more important, not just territory-wise but also limit the potential of "thick" white bottom group. Thick with no potential is just slow. |
Author: | Uberdude [ Thu Mar 05, 2015 3:02 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Getting back into go after 18 years |
Do you really think this is smaller than r6? The 2 stones are quite big and thick, for example now if white n3 black can answer at o4 if he wants to reduce the centre and allow white to split at n2 as a big gote endgame move which no longer threatens the 5 stones to the left. |
Author: | ystao [ Thu Mar 05, 2015 3:07 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Getting back into go after 18 years |
Uberdude wrote: This makes white next move at Q6 wonderful. |
Author: | Uberdude [ Thu Mar 05, 2015 3:13 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Getting back into go after 18 years |
ystao wrote: This makes white next move at Q6 wonderful. But wasn't c4 also wonderful? I don't mind if white makes some points/potential if black makes more. Perhaps this next? I feel black has maintained his 2 stone advantage if not extended it here. Should white have approached at r14 before q6? The aji of k6 could come in handy in a reduction of white's centre right area (for example o8 might become an interesting move). |
Author: | ystao [ Thu Mar 05, 2015 3:24 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Getting back into go after 18 years |
Uberdude wrote: But wasn't c4 also wonderful? I don't mind if white makes some points/potential if black makes more. Perhaps this next? I feel black has maintained his 2 stone advantage if not extended it here. Should white have approached at r14 before q6? You are right that white will approach R14 then Q6. This will make white initial moves around K5 to be efficient. With black defending the bottom corners first, there is no good position for white to make K5 group efficient. This extends black's advantage by another stone probably. The aji of K6 is certainly useful if black decides to reduce white area at center. But why should I let white build up an area in the center first? |
Author: | Uberdude [ Thu Mar 05, 2015 3:48 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Getting back into go after 18 years |
ystao wrote: But why should I let white build up an area in the center first? Because you built a huge lower left in exchange (though maybe you are right it's not such an interesting area). Also in the game white still has some centre potential (e.g. q7). Or if you insist on killing r3 invasion maybe white can find a way to sacrifice it for some outside stones. If c6 makes you so sad you don't need to defend the lower left 3-3 with my move 7 but could play around there. Btw, as a more pragmatic argument for the cut, I doubt many KGS 4ks would sacrifice the 2 stones but try to save them and make a heavy group for you to attack ![]() |
Author: | Shaddy [ Thu Mar 05, 2015 3:48 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Getting back into go after 18 years |
C4 isn't necessary and Black has a perfect ladder breaker at P9 in this diagram. Somewhat on a tangent, I think you're really underestimating the importance of thickness. |
Author: | ystao [ Thu Mar 05, 2015 3:59 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Getting back into go after 18 years |
Uberdude wrote: ] Because you built a huge lower left in exchange (though maybe you are right it's not such an interesting area). Also in the game white still has some centre potential (e.g. q7). Or if you insist on killing r3 invasion maybe white can find a way to sacrifice it for some outside stones. If c6 makes you so sad you don't need to defend the lower left 3-3 with my move 7 but could play around there. Q7 after R6 is much less efficient because the right side is basically open to black with R6 already at low position. Comparing to white Q8 and no black stones on R line, white will be buliding up both right side and center. |
Author: | Uberdude [ Thu Mar 05, 2015 4:05 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Getting back into go after 18 years |
Shaddy, it's a net not a ladder, though if you use the net the g6 turn threatens to escape if white doesn't have the north-west ladder. White can g6 push in sente, but I'm not sure that's a good exchange before black defends the lower left as if you do it before maybe black can try to kill the 3-3? ![]() ystao, sure white's centre/right is much better if he plays there first, but black's lower left is much better with the cut. I'm not saying cut is the only move, both ways seem playable to me; I wonder what other dan players here think. |
Author: | Shaddy [ Thu Mar 05, 2015 4:20 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Getting back into go after 18 years |
Ah, you're right. In that case I like q13 instead of c4. |
Author: | ystao [ Thu Mar 05, 2015 5:14 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Getting back into go after 18 years |
Shaddy wrote: C4 isn't necessary and Black has a perfect ladder breaker at P9 in this diagram. Somewhat on a tangent, I think you're really underestimating the importance of thickness. Black defending both corners are thick and with potential towards left and right sides. White K5 group with no good position to develop is just slow. In this game I almost gave white every fight and was still easily ahead because white only used the thickness to very low efficiency. I certainly did not underestimate thickness in this game. For example, black jumps into center at L12, this is respecting the thickness of white around, any closer to white wall would be inviting a bad fight. Black only now makes move towards K6 after black is thick in the center is also respecting the thickness of white. Thickness is locally slow and inefficient, it only repays you if you can develop an area on it or force your opponent's weak group run towards it. I was avoiding both in this game and leaving white with only slow and inefficient. |
Author: | Shaddy [ Thu Mar 05, 2015 5:55 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Getting back into go after 18 years |
If you have to respect the thickness, it's already working. That's why it's useful; whoever is thicker has more freedom over the whole board. I agree, you outplayed your opponent and made his thickness useless; I think you're stronger than him. But I still think White's result at 19 is quite nice. |
Author: | ystao [ Fri Mar 06, 2015 6:38 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: Getting back into go after 18 years |
Shaddy wrote: If you have to respect the thickness, it's already working. That's why it's useful; whoever is thicker has more freedom over the whole board. I agree, you outplayed your opponent and made his thickness useless; I think you're stronger than him. But I still think White's result at 19 is quite nice. I never said thickness is "useless", any stone on board can be useful, the question here is efficiency and follow-up moves. Thickness is an investment for future. In this case, white has no good position for next move in bottom half. White is forced to play in top-half and black has no immediate worries in bottom half either (ie. black is also thick in bottom half). But black has ~30 points territories in bottom half at this moment, white has no good options to build up 30 points territories using its thickness. At this point, white is struggling to find next move. If black cuts off white: In this situation it's clear a or b would be wonderful next moves. Cutting off white with ![]() |
Author: | Shaddy [ Fri Mar 06, 2015 10:53 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: Getting back into go after 18 years |
Ahh, I get it now. That's an idea I haven't thought about much, and I agree now. Thanks for being patient with me. |
Author: | Uberdude [ Sat Mar 07, 2015 2:02 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: Getting back into go after 18 years |
Those 2 diagrams are a bit misleading though because in the first it is white sente and in the second black has sente. So how about comparing these? What next for white do you fear in the 2nd? This? Next a for black? k6 is more interesting later now that black got the turn which makes up for the slightly slow feeling I get. Interesting position ![]() |
Author: | ystao [ Sat Mar 07, 2015 8:58 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: Getting back into go after 18 years |
Uberdude wrote: In this case white has a good configuration on the left side. ![]() Also ![]() ![]() Or white could G6 before D6 try to shut black in completely and aim to build a huge area with a stone around K12. Lots of good options for white. In any case, fighting on bottom half of the board is going to make white thick center group efficient. It's best option to avoid any fight near that group and reduce its potential from afar. Edit: Actually black is already in very awkward position when ![]() |
Author: | Uberdude [ Sun Mar 08, 2015 4:27 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: Getting back into go after 18 years |
I asked Jeff Chang 6d about this position. He said tenuki was a no-no, cut was a compromise, but acceptable for cashing in a lot of territory but does make it easier for white too, but he prefers to attack the group as a whole: |
Author: | ystao [ Sun Mar 08, 2015 7:48 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: Getting back into go after 18 years |
Uberdude wrote: I asked Jeff Chang 6d about this position. He said tenuki was a no-no, cut was a compromise, but acceptable for cashing in a lot of territory but does make it easier for white too, but he prefers to attack the group as a whole: Attack whole group is certainly better than cutting directly ![]() ![]() ![]() Also blacking defending bottom corners is not simple tenuki, it's a method to reducing white center group's influence and a very much correlated move in the bottom half of the board. A tenuki would be a move in the top half of the board. |
Page 1 of 1 | All times are UTC - 8 hours [ DST ] |
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group http://www.phpbb.com/ |