Life In 19x19 :: Losing on the psychological side?

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Author:

Motorpsico [ Sat Jul 11, 2015 3:15 pm ]

Post subject:

Losing on the psychological side?

Hi to all! I'm a new member, a Go newbie (about 15 kyu) and I would like to show you a recent game I lost on OGS.

With this game my problem is not only that I played badly, but that my opponent played in a uncomfortable way to me, always going for the fight, for the kill. Right from the opening, he chose to answer the corner approach always attaching... I must admit that, been new to the game, I'm already a little bit lost with this type of playing: I don't know how to handle it. And that's what happens to me in general when I play someone with this type of style. I just cannot play my best when my opponent strategy seems to be (to me) going always to the kill, and if he succeeds he wins, if he fails he looses, with seemingly little care about the territorial side of the game.

Of course I understand that its a totally legitimate strategy (and in some way a smart one, because been stronger he would be better at tactics), but I feel I have a psychological problem in how to deal with it, how to adapt my play to this style. I'm sure experience will fix it, but I wouldn't mind any advice or tip to make the learning process faster.

But as I said, I don't think I lost the game entirely for a psycological reason. I do think he played better, and that he's obviously a stronger player than I am. So any comment in the game itself is also welcome!

Thanks in advance!

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Author:	EdLee [ Sat Jul 11, 2015 11:49 pm ]
Post subject:
Hi Motorp, Welcome to Go. Of course, the mental aspect is big factor in Go, for human opponents. However, most likely your biggest problem actually lies in your basics. (I haven't looked at your SGF yet. ) It doesn't really matter so much how fantastic or poorly you feel, which strategies you and your opponent choose -- what happens is when it comes down to the actual fighting: the global fights, and the local contact fights, as you mentioned, "you cannot handle it" -- because of gaps in your Go knowledge fundamentals -- you fall apart and get bad results in your fights. It's your basics.

Author:	EdLee [ Sat Jul 11, 2015 11:58 pm ]
Post subject:
Hi Motorp, ( OK, we start to go through your SGF... ) Specifically: Your idea to extend is good; but notice your 4th line extend gives much less pressure on than if you extend the other way: descend to R16. Can you see if you descend to R16 instead, it makes life much more difficult for and for W in general in this fight? Notice if was at R16 instead, and the same moves , , still occurred, then by now W's Q17 group would have only 3 libs, instead of 4 in the real game. Up to here, this result is OK for both sides, for these levels. However, instead of this net to capture , you didn't notice the turn o18 is a very big move -- you threaten to capture on the next move, and this affects the life of the entire W corner group. Instead, see what happens here: W gets this move in sente: it threatens to pull out with o16 atari. So, you should have taken o18 first yourself, instead of letting W take it. Good. Tenuki to take a big point. Bad. You don't want this 2nd line hane. You want the 3rd line hane at R5. Proverb: "hane at the head of two (enemy) stones" -- that's hane at R5. When you hane at R5, do you see you are getting "ahead" of W ? In the game, after you connect with , W jumps out with (or W can also extend to R5 ) -- do you see now it is White that is "ahead" of you ? So you missed R5 -- instead of getting "ahead" of White, you voluntarily let White get "ahead" of you, with R5 (or R6). Re-cap: up to here, notice the three moves: , , -- all problems with your fundamentals in local, contact fights.

Author:	EdLee [ Sun Jul 12, 2015 12:32 am ]
Post subject:
Hi Motorp, Good. Local, shared vital point. Can you see if W got this point first, W would make a good, powerful tiger's mouth shape ? this connect is a little slow. Can you find a better local move for W instead ? W extends to R7. Good. Tenuki to take a big point. Tenuki to take the last open corner is big. However, you can also reply to and take advantage of you being here first, so you should not get a bad result lower left corner, if both sides play correctly. Replying locally to is very big. A natural follow-up question: did you ignore because: you knew what you were doing (take the last open corner, at the expense of suffering), or -- you lacked the confidence (and skills) to handle -- in other words, scared you away ? If the former, maybe it's OK; if the latter, not do good. It's probably a combination of the two.

Author:	EdLee [ Sun Jul 12, 2015 12:53 am ]
Post subject:
Hi Motorp, In some cases, this solid connect can be a very powerful move. But here, it's soft -- you let W off the hook too easily. You let W get out. Can you think of another possible local move for W ? W can keima B5 and get out faster. Knowing now that you let W off the hook too easily here, can you find another local move for ? Hint: proverb "Hane at the head of two (enemy) stones". at C4. See again the notes at .

Author:	EdLee [ Sun Jul 12, 2015 1:04 am ]
Post subject:
Hi Motorp, I haven't looked past of your SGF. But I'm guessing quite likely the rest of the game will contain more of the same (or very similar) mistakes in the fundamentals (basics). Other kind folks can give you more comments. (But it's already a lot of info to digest. ) Up to , you can see all the problems are in the basics. What you mentioned in the title and OP about the mental aspects is not some magical, mysterious pitfalls. Rather, it is very tangible, very specific, tiny pieces of Go knowledge in the basics: basic shapes, basic tesujis, basic life-and-death, basic contact fights, etc. Quote: how to adapt my play to this style. Hopefully, if you've read this far, you start to get an idea -- there is no magic or secret -- it's all hard work: to improve our basics. One by one.

Author:	tekesta [ Sun Jul 12, 2015 5:20 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Losing on the psychological side?
Winning a game on fighting is possible if you have superior tactical skills. If you replay through any game record by Huang Longshi, Fan Xiping, or Shi Xiangxia, you will find that crazy tactical exchanges take place. Games by Hon'inbo Dosaku and his contemporaries also display this characteristic. Korean Go players are known for their combative style; they say that territory gained through fighting is secure and lacking weaknesses. I think that the most obvious mistake is that you got into a fight right from the start. Why give the opponent what he wants and so make the game easy for him? It would have been better just to play standard opening moves. This why you can avoid have a big group materialize out of nowhere and influence the future course of the game. I would have played at D3, for example. Strong players plan ahead and pay attention to their opening moves. When the fighting starts, if you have paid attention to your opening you will have an advantage in local fights. To improve your skills, play plenty of games to gain experience, do plenty of easy puzzles, and replay pro game records. You should, at your current level, play as often as possible. You will gain experience and begin getting a feel for Go. Have stronger players review your games so you can know what you are doing right and doing wrong. To improve your command of the basics, study is necessary. Do plenty of easy puzzles, primarily those in the life & death and tesuji categories. You should also do puzzles in the fuseki, joseki, middle game, and endgame categories, but L&D and tesuji are the bread and butter of any Go player, so do lots of these if you do nothing else. I say easy puzzles since doing puzzles that are too difficult will not yield any significant benefit. You will internalize tactical patterns & sequences, which will aid in quick and accruate analysis of board positions during play. Finally, replay pro games to observe a game of Go. By doing this you will internalize patterns of play that occur in professional games; pro players are well-trained and so rarely make inconsistent moves. Although at first replaying pro games can be tedious, you will accustom your brain to read out long sequences of moves, which often translates to being able to outread your opponent during play. In addition, you will have a source of fresh new ideas to apply in your own games; if you are playing against other amateurs, you will pick up their ways of playing Go, win or lose, and you will develop bad habits as time passes. Replaying pro games will help you weed out bad habits from your Go playing. If you like you can read books with commented games to help with understanding the meanings behind moves, although it is more beneficial to do so after you have spent some time playing Go. As an aside you should also read theory books. At your current level a book such as the Learn to Play Go series by Janice Kim or Xu Zhaoxi's How to Play Go is a good choice. If you want to touch on specific themes, Yang Yilun's books, such as Fundamental Principles of Go, which talks about opening moves, are good reference. This and other books by Mr. Yang can be found at http://www.slateandshell.com The Elementary Go Series from Kiseido Publishing is another good choice. You can go to http://gogameguru.com to find these and more. With consistent, regular practice and refinement (study), you will be able to improve your Go and become a better person in the process. Go can be such a difficult game to master that you will often wonder, "Why the hell did I ever learn this game?!" so read this article for some encouragement. https://sethbenezra.wordpress.com/2013/ ... art-21-go/

Author:	Motorpsico [ Sun Jul 12, 2015 6:47 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Losing on the psychological side?
Hi EdLee! Thank you very much for the reply and taking the time to review the game! I understood what you said, and now I see clearly where did I failed. Quote: A natural follow-up question: did you ignore because: you knew what you were doing (take the last open corner, at the expense of suffering), or -- you lacked the confidence (and skills) to handle -- in other words, scared you away ? I ignore it partly because I was somewhat tired of always the same: everytime I went to the corner he attached. I wanted to see what would change if I ignored it. I just felt like "again the attach? Let me just play another thing, I'm just tired of this corner game!" In the end it didn't matter too much, given that he also attached in the other corner.. I'm right now reading "Tesuji" of James Davis. I have already read the Learn to play Go series (from I to IV), Opening theory made easy, In the beginning (elementary go series). I think my biggest weakness (amongst all I have) is in the fight, so I hope I will soon improve that part.

Author:	Motorpsico [ Sun Jul 12, 2015 6:58 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Losing on the psychological side?
tekesta wrote: Winning a game on fighting is possible if you have superior tactical skills. If you replay through any game record by Huang Longshi, Fan Xiping, or Shi Xiangxia, you will find that crazy tactical exchanges take place. Games by Hon'inbo Dosaku and his contemporaries also display this characteristic. Korean Go players are known for their combative style; they say that territory gained through fighting is secure and lacking weaknesses. I think that the most obvious mistake is that you got into a fight right from the start. Why give the opponent what he wants and so make the game easy for him? It would have been better just to play standard opening moves. This why you can avoid have a big group materialize out of nowhere and influence the future course of the game. I would have played at D3, for example. Strong players plan ahead and pay attention to their opening moves. When the fighting starts, if you have paid attention to your opening you will have an advantage in local fights. To improve your skills, play plenty of games to gain experience, do plenty of easy puzzles, and replay pro game records. You should, at your current level, play as often as possible. You will gain experience and begin getting a feel for Go. Have stronger players review your games so you can know what you are doing right and doing wrong. To improve your command of the basics, study is necessary. Do plenty of easy puzzles, primarily those in the life & death and tesuji categories. You should also do puzzles in the fuseki, joseki, middle game, and endgame categories, but L&D and tesuji are the bread and butter of any Go player, so do lots of these if you do nothing else. I say easy puzzles since doing puzzles that are too difficult will not yield any significant benefit. You will internalize tactical patterns & sequences, which will aid in quick and accruate analysis of board positions during play. Finally, replay pro games to observe a game of Go. By doing this you will internalize patterns of play that occur in professional games; pro players are well-trained and so rarely make inconsistent moves. Although at first replaying pro games can be tedious, you will accustom your brain to read out long sequences of moves, which often translates to being able to outread your opponent during play. In addition, you will have a source of fresh new ideas to apply in your own games; if you are playing against other amateurs, you will pick up their ways of playing Go, win or lose, and you will develop bad habits as time passes. Replaying pro games will help you weed out bad habits from your Go playing. If you like you can read books with commented games to help with understanding the meanings behind moves, although it is more beneficial to do so after you have spent some time playing Go. As an aside you should also read theory books. At your current level a book such as the Learn to Play Go series by Janice Kim or Xu Zhaoxi's How to Play Go is a good choice. If you want to touch on specific themes, Yang Yilun's books, such as Fundamental Principles of Go, which talks about opening moves, are good reference. This and other books by Mr. Yang can be found at http://www.slateandshell.com The Elementary Go Series from Kiseido Publishing is another good choice. You can go to http://gogameguru.com to find these and more. With consistent, regular practice and refinement (study), you will be able to improve your Go and become a better person in the process. Go can be such a difficult game to master that you will often wonder, "Why the hell did I ever learn this game?!" so read this article for some encouragement. https://sethbenezra.wordpress.com/2013/ ... art-21-go/ Hi tekesta! Thank you for the reply. In the game I wanted to avoid the fight and the type of game he wanted to play, but I couldn't. As it is seen in the game, everytime I took a corner he attached and went for the fight, giving me little chance to ignore it. About skills, I have already read the Learn to play go series (from I to IV), and some books about the opening. Right now I'm with Tesuji of James Davis, hoping to improve my tactital skills. In regard to pro games, I have went through some pro game in my go board, but of course I understand very little of what's going on. But as you said, at my level the main thing is to incorpore the patterns. What would you think is the best way to review pro games for someone of my level? And what type of pro game (from which player, year, etc.)?

Author:	tekesta [ Sun Jul 12, 2015 11:43 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Losing on the psychological side?
Motorpsico wrote: Hi tekesta! Thank you for the reply. In the game I wanted to avoid the fight and the type of game he wanted to play, but I couldn't. As it is seen in the game, everytime I took a corner he attached and went for the fight, giving me little chance to ignore it. The loss incurred by your opponent capturing should be small in the opening phase of the game. Even if he manages to capture get a ponnuki in that corner, during the same time you can increase your whole-board influence by playing at strategic places around the star points. Now, if you must do a hane, better to play at R17 than at P17. At least with an R17 play you can get the corner and let your opponent get outward influence. should be at K4. The move does seem territory-oriented, but given that you are currently weak at fighting it's better for you to build thickness (strong positions that can withstand invasion) and have a base from which to launch attacks against your opponent's positions. Or you can try something like Takemiya Masaki's "Cosmic Go", but it takes very good fighting skill to make such a style work for you; Takemiya-san did not use his cosmic style extensively until after he got his 9-dan diploma in 1981. Have a look at the following Takemiya game. Making territory immediately is never good. Look at the below (big) image and tell me who stands to get more territory in the end. Quote: About skills, I have already read the Learn to play go series (from I to IV), and some books about the opening. Right now I'm with Tesuji of James Davis, hoping to improve my tactital skills. In regard to pro games, I have went through some pro game in my go board, but of course I understand very little of what's going on. But as you said, at my level the main thing is to incorpore the patterns. What would you think is the best way to review pro games for someone of my level? And what type of pro game (from which player, year, etc.)? Even at my level I would not understand a pro game the way a professional player would. The best way is just to replay each one from start to finish. Just the first 100 moves will teach you a lot about opening and middle game. The rest is endgame. If you want to get the whole package, replay the whole game record from start to finish. After replaying pro games for a long time you will be able to play guessing games such as guess-the-next-move. GoGameWorld has some advice regarding the study of pro games: http://www.gogameworld.com/2013/03/30/h ... aKnwJNVKlM As for choice of pro, it depends on your preference. If you like the playing style of historical masters, there are the players such as Ito Showa and Yasui Chitoku, who was known for playing a "pure" style of Go. As well there are the Hon'inbos Dosaku, Genjo, Shusaku, and Shuei. Shuei especially since his style of play is regarded as modern for its time and many present-day pros respect it. Shuei's games post-1897 tend to be the most studied; after 1897 Shuei never took Black again! Dosaku was very good at tactics and Shusaku was a master at using thickness, so you may want to replay their games. Currently I am replaying 12 games by Doteki, another historical Japanese master. Below is one of his games. Hon'inbo Dosaku was another master. So strong was Dosaku that, except for his student Doteki, almost all the strong Japanese Go players at the time had to play against Dosaku with handicap to have a chance to beat him. Below is one of his games. This is a 4-stone handicap game in which Dosaku took White. Notice how White takes advantage of Black's compulsion to defend territory. With a handicap, territory is to be gained through fighting, not built directly. Not many in the Western countries know about Dosaku or Doteki. However, Shusaku is a more widely known figure, especially among those that have watched the anime Hikaru no Go. Below is one of his games. This is a game known as the "Ear-reddening Game" played by the same players. This site has printable games in SGF format: http://romaniango.org/partide/ Huang Longshi, Fan Xiping, and Shi Xiangxia are among the biggest Chinese names in the game. In fact, the late Go Seigen studied games by these masters before he went to Japan, so they are definitely worth replaying and studying. In their games there is a lot of fighting since both Black and White try to keep their groups connected; under the old Chinese rules 2 points were taken away from the final score for every living group on the board, so the fewer living groups the better. Here is a Huang Longshi game, with commentary: http://www.gocommentary.com/free-videos ... nyuan.html Also, Sun Ruoshi has published some books on old Chinese Go. This one has 40 games (with no commentary) by different historical Chinese masters: http://www.amazon.com/Games-Wonder-Jun- ... 497460832/ In the past the time limits were longer, so players had more time to find the right move. If you want to follow games by, say, Gu Li, Lee Sedol, and Iyama Yuta, or just stay up to date with the latest in opening styles and joseki, it's better to replay their and other modern pros' games and, if you want, read some of their commented games. Kiseido's Go World Online has a few games from the 2014 10-game match between Gu Li and Lee Sedol. http://www.kiseido.com/printss/ten.htm With the introduction of komi scoring in the 1950s and time limits lasting a few hours instead of several days or weeks, professionals have changed their playing style over the years, even though the tactical side of Go has changed very little over the generations. An L19 member named Logan has published a few game collections in PDF format. I once asked for a collection of Lee Chang-ho's games and this is what I got: viewtopic.php?f=17&t=10643 Replaying pro games is not a magical way to get to shodan, but it provides a lot of benefit for beginners and advanced players alike. So I would not say the problem with your game was psychological, but technical. Smile and pat yourself on the back You just have to improve your technique and this will require time and perseverance. An oak tree takes a long time to grow, but the wood is hard!

Author:	EdLee [ Sun Jul 12, 2015 12:53 pm ]
Post subject:
Hi Motorp, The local move is hane/block at C5. See again notes at . "Hane at the head of two (enemy) stones". If W cuts at D5 -- even if the ladder is good for W -- you descend to B5 and fight. The game move is soft, submissive. Hane C7! Again, your move is very submissive, no fighting spirit. ( Part of the problem here -- I'm guessing -- is you were not sure of the result if W crosscuts... Maybe the same problem with hane at C5. Because you were not sure of your reading. Which is exactly the problem. )

Author:	Motorpsico [ Sun Jul 12, 2015 5:49 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Losing on the psychological side?
tekesta and EdLee, thank you very much for the reply! Overall, as you pointed out Edlee, sometimes I'm afraid of going over complicated fights, and tried to avoid them, because my reading is still weak.

Author:	Bill Spight [ Mon Jul 13, 2015 12:10 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Losing on the psychological side?
Despite your feelings of unease, you actually came out OK through . The tactical disasters came later. Let me encourage you to play more enterprisingly. Occasionally there will be disasters, but that is how you learn. Here are three go proverbs and one rule of thumb which should be helpful. Go proverbs nearly always have exceptions, but they are good guides. The first one is, The second line is the line of defeat. Obviously, if you make territory by crawling on the second line, you only make one point of territory per stone. That is not very efficient. One reason that you came out OK in the opening is that your opponent made too many plays on the second line. You should not only avoid playing on the second line, you should also look for opportunities to force your opponent to play on the second line. (As we shall see, this proverb has many exceptions.) The second one is, Don't look, hane at the head of two stones. The don't look indicates that this proverb has few exceptions. Note that it refers to situations where you have two stones next to the opponent's stones, so that you are leaving them with no more than three dame. You missed a couple of opportunities to hane at the head of two stones, and you once gave yourself the shape as though your opponent had played hane at the head of two stones, although the play had gone differently. Usually you want to avoid that. The third one is, Extend from a crosscut. This one has a lot of exceptions, but crosscuts are very tactical, and extending from one strengthens you without strengthening your opponent. The rule of thumb comes from Bruce Wilcox. It is that stones with fewer than five dame may be vulnerable in a tactical situation. It is usually expressed in the converse, as Five alive. More than once you let your opponent take advantage of stones with fewer than five dame. I have included some variations in the SGF file that I would not expect you to read out in a game. I have done so because there are certain lessons in them. OC, these lessons are not worth too much unless you play such variations. Which means that to take advantage of them you have to leap into the unknown. To improve at go there is a certain unavoidable aspect of jumping into the river to learn how to swim. Come on in, the water's fine. Even though you may find some of the lessons of this game difficult, if you apply yourself I think that they will be worth more than one stone.

Author:	daal [ Mon Jul 13, 2015 4:58 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Losing on the psychological side?
While you have already received many excellent responses regarding technical issues, I would just like to add that of course psychology plays a role in go. Clearly you felt flustered because your opponent's style made you feel uncomfortable, and you didn't know how to handle it. Feeling flustered and not knowing where to play are indeed separate problems. Others have shown you ideas how to handle some of your opponent's moves, and learning these concepts will lower your level of unease when you encounter such moves in the future. It is also however valuable for a go player to acknowledge that in a game, your opponent will try to put you under pressure in the hope that you will play sub-optimal moves, and your ability to remain calm, cool and collected at all times will save many a stone and many a game.

Author:	Motorpsico [ Mon Jul 13, 2015 2:59 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Losing on the psychological side?
Bill Spight Thank you so much for the review! I liked your way of keeping the position simple whenever my opponent went for potential complications.

Author:	Bill Spight [ Mon Jul 13, 2015 3:14 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Losing on the psychological side?
Motorpsico wrote: Bill Spight Thank you so much for the review! You're welcome. Quote: I liked your way of keeping the position simple whenever my opponent went for potential complications. You can do that when you have the advantage.

Author:	Loons [ Tue Jul 14, 2015 11:12 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Losing on the psychological side?
I would like to observe that white's style was not aggressive and fighting-oriented, but abstruse and inane (attributes of mine, both). Contact moves are generally defensive, facilitating settling at a local cost. As such my tactical comment would be that tenuki-ing a contact move in the third corner was a mistake, because then it was like you had erroneously played the contact move yourself. Real contact fights start as both players try and get-one-up in an unsettled situation. Click Here To Show Diagram Code `[go]$$Bc Both white and black must be careful $$ --------------------+ $$ . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ . . . . . 2 . . . . \| $$ , . 3 . . . , 1 . . \| $$ . . . . 6 5 7 . . . \| $$ . . . . . 4 . . . . \| $$ . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ , . . . . . , . . . \|[/go]`

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