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a 0.5 loss against a 3k player, review request please
http://www.lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=13209		 Page 1 of 1
Author:  Fllecha [ Sat May 21, 2016 12:34 pm ]
Post subject:  a 0.5 loss against a 3k player, review request please
Hi all,

I played a close game against a 3k player and I need some review especially playing out ko threats and ladder breaker.
Thanks in advance, I am black
Author:  EdLee [ Sun May 22, 2016 8:15 pm ]
Post subject: 
Hi Fllecha,
Just an idea for :b4: --
If this happens, UL and LL are exactly symmetrical,
and it's B's turn. So you know you have kept your lead.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ -----------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Author:  EdLee [ Sun May 22, 2016 8:20 pm ]
Post subject: 
:b8: What was your plan if :w9: attaches at D8 ?
Would you have played the same continuation as in the real game ?

If we look at the board at :w7:,
do you see your :b8: jumps into one of the narrowest areas on the whole board ? Why ?

Did you consider D14 instead ?

:b10: - :b12: If you plan was to make this exchange,
then why give W the extra stone :b8: ?
Author:  EdLee [ Sun May 22, 2016 8:33 pm ]
Post subject: 
:b18:
In this joseki, :b2: is a keima.
( See also :b29: .. :w32: )
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W Joseki
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . 2 . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ . 5 . . 1 . . 4 . . |
$$ . . . . . . 3 . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ --------------------[/go]

But in the game, :w17: = :wc: slides first.
If you take 3-3, then if W still jumps out,
then because of the exchange ( :wc: - :b1: ), now you can jump farther, to :b3: --
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . 3 . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . 2 . . . . . |
$$ , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ . . B . O . . 1 . . |
$$ . . . . . . W . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ --------------------[/go]
Compared to the joseki above:
- :b3: has jumped farther;
- instead of making a base, :w2: is just running;
- :bc: has pincered W.
Author:  EdLee [ Sun May 22, 2016 8:44 pm ]
Post subject: 
:b18: - :b20:
The sequence in the game is strange.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W Joseki
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . 2 . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ . . 4 . 1 . . 5 . . |
$$ . . . . . . 3 . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ --------------------[/go]
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W Joseki (cont'd)
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ , . . 9 8 . X . . . |
$$ . . X 0 O 6 . O . . |
$$ . . . . . 7 O . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ --------------------[/go]
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wm11 Joseki (cont'd)
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ . . . a b . . . . . |
$$ , . . O X . X . . . |
$$ . . X X O X . O . . |
$$ . . . . 1 O O . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ --------------------[/go]
Next, B has the choices of (a), (b), and others, depending on the whole board.
Author:  EdLee [ Sun May 22, 2016 8:52 pm ]
Post subject: 
:b22: Tenuki is strange.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ , . . O X . X . . . |
$$ . . X 1 O X . O . . |
$$ . . . . 2 O O . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ --------------------[/go]

:w23: W doesn't have to reply to your :b22: :
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . 1 . . . . . |
$$ , . . O X 2 X . . . |
$$ . . X 3 O X . O . . |
$$ . . . . . O O . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ --------------------[/go]

:w25: Very strange.
Author:  Schachus [ Sun May 22, 2016 11:21 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: a 0.5 loss against a 3k player, review request please
:b28: is almost comletely wasted. That 1 stone is probably the least important stone on the board in that moment, it doesnt do anything since you captured 03.Instead you could block at r5, which is big.
Author:  EdLee [ Mon May 23, 2016 12:20 am ]
Post subject: 
Hi Fllecha,

To add to Schachus, about :b28: --
If you have experience in a car going fast, the windshield sometimes collects all kinds of insects:
Attachment:
image.jpg
image.jpg [ 74.31 KiB | Viewed 9856 times ]
The :w19: stone is like one of them.
Author:  EdLee [ Mon May 23, 2016 12:32 am ]
Post subject: 
:w33: .. :b38: Maybe you didn't have a plan on how to deal with :w33: .
You just let W jump into your bottom and you didn't do anything about it.

The board at :b38: -- a few of the problems:
  • ( :b2: , :b14: , :b38: ) this shape is not a good combination for Black;
  • :b22: is misplaced;
  • ( :w29: , :w31: ) didn't finish the joseki, but you didn't punish W until :b40: ;
  • After ( :b34: , :b36: ), you still have a weakness at E3;

:w45: Bad.

:b50: , :b52: End game moves; too early, too small.
Author:  EdLee [ Mon May 23, 2016 12:51 am ]
Post subject: 
Fllecha wrote:
especially ... ko threats and ladder breaker.
Hi Fllecha,

Sometimes our biggest problems (in Go) aren't what we think they are.
( Quite common for certain levels. )
You can see this from a (brief) survey of the game up to :b52: .

Samples of the big problems:
- Basic shapes;
- The value of stones ( important v. unimportant stones );
- Small, slow moves ( the value of moves );
- Sente v. gote.
Author:  EdLee [ Mon May 23, 2016 1:10 am ]
Post subject: 
:b54: Small, slow. ( And pushing from behind )
Locally, you can jump to P10.
Globally, there are bigger moves (e.g. G16, P16, R6 ).

:b56: Big loss. Q18.

:b84: Wrong shape. If you want to reply locally, K14.
Author:  Knotwilg [ Mon May 23, 2016 1:19 am ]
Post subject:  Re: a 0.5 loss against a 3k player, review request please
A halfpointer will always elicit my endgame review :)

At 96 Black makes an unfavorable offer for an exchange and White accepts it. This puts him slightly ahead. If instead Black pulls out his stones, he has a comfortable lead.

At 99 the endgame starts, if you wish. Black does well but misses an opportunity to forestall the ko at the bottom.

At 147 White makes a bizarre mistake that cost him 4 points
At 152 however, Black makes a similar mistake costing him 2-3 points

A missed opportunity for White aside, after that the game is lost for Black, if only by half a point.
Author:  Fllecha [ Mon May 23, 2016 10:36 am ]
Post subject:  Re: a 0.5 loss against a 3k player, review request please
ty guys, i need some time to study your reviews but i'll answer shortly ty
Author:  Fllecha [ Tue May 24, 2016 7:45 am ]
Post subject:  Re:
EdLee wrote:
:b8: What was your plan if :w9: attaches at D8 ?
Would you have played the same continuation as in the real game ?

If we look at the board at :w7:,
do you see your :b8: jumps into one of the narrowest areas on the whole board ? Why ?

Did you consider D14 instead ?

:b10: - :b12: If you plan was to make this exchange,
then why give W the extra stone :b8: ?


This is a bad habit that I had when I started the game. The idea is to defend the corner in (almost) sente, even if white attaches, to avoid the annoyong 3-3 invasion. According to Eidogo joseki tutor the stone sacrifice is a Lee Changho idea.

The problem is that even if black succedes to defend the corner in sente the position that arises is somewhat weak anyway and against strong opponents, so I started avoiding that move. ;)

About the 22 stone the idea was to play a nice ladder breaker which succeded, but looking at the variation you made it was completely unnecessary if black would have answered by connecting in the LR.

Very much appreciated endgame analysis knotwling! many thanks ;)
Ty guys ;)
Author:  Charles Matthews [ Wed May 25, 2016 6:02 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Re:
Fllecha wrote:
EdLee wrote:

:b10: - :b12: If you plan was to make this exchange,
then why give W the extra stone :b8: ?


This is a bad habit that I had when I started the game. The idea is to defend the corner in (almost) sente, even if white attaches, to avoid the annoyong 3-3 invasion. According to Eidogo joseki tutor the stone sacrifice is a Lee Changho idea.


I'm suitably impressed. But this type of "pattern" is more often disadvantageous than helpful.

By "pattern" I mean sequence, order of play, not "shape".

Your :b34: and :b36: is not what I'd play: I'd want :b34: one to the left, to avoid a weakness, and adding to the strong side with :b36: goes against good feeling.

Also :b38: and :b40:. I think you should just play at :b40:. A fight can come out of the right side, and I can't tell whether the :b38: for :w39: exchange will be correct, from the point of view of that fight. Usually having stones in the centre helps with fighting, so you have perhaps just helped White.
Author:  Uberdude [ Wed May 25, 2016 7:10 am ]
Post subject:  Re: a 0.5 loss against a 3k player, review request please
Charles Matthews wrote:
Fllecha wrote:
EdLee wrote:

:b10: - :b12: If you plan was to make this exchange,
then why give W the extra stone :b8: ?


This is a bad habit that I had when I started the game. The idea is to defend the corner in (almost) sente, even if white attaches, to avoid the annoyong 3-3 invasion. According to Eidogo joseki tutor the stone sacrifice is a Lee Changho idea.


I'm suitably impressed. But this type of "pattern" is more often disadvantageous than helpful.

By "pattern" I mean sequence, order of play, not "shape".


Fllecha, a study suggestion: can you find this strategy/pattern lurking beneath the surface in AlphaGo vs Lee Sedol game 2?

Clue:
It would have been a nice idea for AlphaGo, so Lee varied to avoid it, but AlphaGo came up with a nice counter to that too.
Author:  Bill Spight [ Wed May 25, 2016 10:03 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: a 0.5 loss against a 3k player, review request please
White missed chances to invade the bottom left corner. I am evaluating some positions based upon it here: viewtopic.php?f=12&t=12327&p=204833#p204833 :)
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