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A typical game of mine against GNU Go http://www.lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=13276	Page 1 of 1

Author:

Babelardus [ Sun Jun 12, 2016 4:10 pm ]

Post subject:

A typical game of mine against GNU Go

This is one of the typical games I play against non-MonteCarlo engines such as GNU Go, Aya, or the webbased Cosumi. If I can't get them to fight somehow, I'll lose by 20 points or more. Mostly it's like this:

- Me building up a huge lead.
- Then I fall behind because of the huge influence the engine has
- And then I frantically try to reduce or invade, which can have two outcomes:
1. I fail the invasion and I die.
2. I succeed to reduce, but get reduced myself, and lose anyway.

This is becoming frustrating as I don't seem to be able to prevent a non-MC-engine getting either huge influence, or a huge moyo. As soon as I get a non-MC engine to fight, I start beating it soundly, which makes me look several stones stronger; if they play solidly however, I seem to be several stones weaker. I've commented what I was thinking during the game.

Feel free to comment, and thanks in advance.

Attachments:

me_gnugo.sgf [8.15 KiB]
Downloaded 607 times

Author:	EdLee [ Sun Jun 12, 2016 4:15 pm ]
Post subject:
Hi Babelardus, You can use the SGF tags to embed your game here.

Author:	Babelardus [ Sun Jun 12, 2016 4:17 pm ]
Post subject:	Re:
EdLee wrote: Hi Babelardus, You can use the SGF tags to embed your game here. I know. Made a mistake in the URL and had to do it over. Fixed now

Author:	EdLee [ Sun Jun 12, 2016 4:20 pm ]
Post subject:
Hi Babelardus, OK, you included the SGF now. In one of your variations of -- please see screenshot below -- you played a very strange move -- D18 connect -- to improve, you must fix this kind of moves ( by yourself ) Attachment: 15.jpg [ 59.89 KiB \| Viewed 10153 times ] Babelardus wrote: 1. I fail the invasion and I die. 2. I succeed to reduce, but get reduced myself, and lose anyway. There are (probably) multiple reasons for the above 'typical' results in your games, and one reason is the kind of moves like D18 connect -- you must fix this by yourself.

Author:	EdLee [ Sun Jun 12, 2016 4:30 pm ]
Post subject:
Hi Babelardus, Earlier, in the same variation, you played an empty triangle move for W -- E16 connect -- please see screenshot: Attachment: 15_empty_triangle.jpg [ 58.5 KiB \| Viewed 10152 times ] This is also not right. The correct local move for W is block at D17. You (also) need to develop a sense or feeling for good shapes, and bad shapes ( like your E16 connect for W ).

Author:	EdLee [ Sun Jun 12, 2016 4:35 pm ]
Post subject:
Hi Babelardus, About , this is a very common situation -- basic shape -- Please see game review thread, post 4.

Author:	Babelardus [ Sun Jun 12, 2016 4:43 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: A typical game of mine against GNU Go
First, I obviously added the variations and comments afterward; I didn't read out 4-5 variations 10-15 moves deep. I can't yet do that. The variations are what I think what would have happened. Thanks for pointing out the connection at D18. The connection is probably not necessary. The reason I play those moves regularly is because I can't read out (= get confused and lose the 'mental view' of the board) the entire variation I'm thinking about. Then I don't know if leaving the connection hanging is safe or not. One of those moments is move 121. I see several big(ger) points on the board, but dare not play them as I'm afraid that white will, at some point, revive the stone at K11, after which my entire reduction would (possibly) be killed. At move 90, I have some variations that point out that white J11 can't be used to disconnect the reducing stones, but after white 116 at N11 I became unsure, in reading out possible variations, so I felt I needed to kill white K11 now. It did cost me a move, and such moves could obviously be used to strengthen an invasion or reduction. What do you mean with "you must fix this by yourself" ?

Author: EdLee [ Sun Jun 12, 2016 4:44 pm ]

Post subject:

Hi Babelardus,

As we see in the above 3 examples, basic shapes are a recurring problem.

Here's another one:

:b9:

This is wrong feeling, and bad shape for Black.
( Diagram rotated for space ):

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B Wrong feeling. $$ | . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . X 1 O . . . . , $$ | . . O . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . $$ ---------------------[/go]

The result is good shape for W, and bad shape for B:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B $$ | . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . X X W . . . . , $$ | . . O 2 . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . $$ ---------------------[/go]

Proverb: "Hane at the head of (2) enemy stones." -- you make bad shape for B, and good shape for W.
Please see also Hane Head of 2 stones.

Author:	Babelardus [ Sun Jun 12, 2016 4:46 pm ]
Post subject:	Re:
EdLee wrote: Hi Babelardus, Earlier, in the same variation, you played an empty triangle move for W -- E16 connect -- please see screenshot: Attachment: 15_empty_triangle.jpg This is also not right. The correct local move for W is block at D17. You (also) need to develop a sense or feeling for good shapes, and bad shapes ( like your E16 connect for W ). Hi, EdLee, Thanks for the help. I know the shape you point out, but I don't understand why it works. After white D17, doesn't B-E16, W-E15, B-D15, W-C15, B-D14 sequence disconnect those stones? EdLee wrote: Hi Babelardus, As we see in the above 3 examples, basic shapes are a recurring problem. Here's another one: This is wrong feeling, and bad shape for Black. ( Diagram rotated for space ): Click Here To Show Diagram Code `[go]$$B Wrong feeling. $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . $$ \| . . X 1 O . . . . , $$ \| . . O . . . . . . . $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . $$ ---------------------[/go]` Why is this, with the two or three space extension as a follow-up, a bad shape? What would be the correct answer in that situation?

Author:	EdLee [ Sun Jun 12, 2016 4:57 pm ]
Post subject:
Babelardus wrote: I didn't read out 4-5 variations 10-15 moves deep. I can't yet do that. ... Thanks for pointing out the connection at D18. The connection is probably not necessary. The reason I play those moves regularly is... ... What do you mean with "you must fix this by yourself" ? Hi Babelardus, About your D18 connect in your variation: This does not require 15 move reading. It requires 3 moves, perhaps: Click Here To Show Diagram Code `[go]$$B $$ --------------------- $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . $$ \| . 1 X 2 3 . . . . . $$ \| . O O X X X . . . . $$ \| . . . O O O X . . , $$ \| . . . . . O . . . . $$ \| . . . . . . . . . .[/go]` It means rather than waiting for other people to fix this kind of moves for you, to point them out for you, it's much better if you learn to see this kind of mistakes, and the better moves, by yourself.

Author: EdLee [ Sun Jun 12, 2016 5:05 pm ]

Post subject:

Hi Babelardus,

About :b9:

, one continuation is the hane:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B $$ | . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . X . O . . . . , $$ | . 1 O . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . $$ ---------------------[/go]

Continuing:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B $$ | . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . 3 . . . . . . . . $$ | . . X . O . . . . , $$ | . 1 O 2 . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . $$ ---------------------[/go]

There are other variations.
It may be a good time to start to read up on some basic joseki sequences.

Author: EdLee [ Sun Jun 12, 2016 5:22 pm ]

Post subject:

Babelardus wrote:

After white D17, doesn't B-E16, W-E15, B-D15, W-C15, B-D14 sequence disconnect those stones?

Hi Babelardus,

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc $$ --------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . 1 X X . . . . $$ | . . . O 2 O X . , $$ | . . 5 4 3 O . . . . $$ | . . . 6 . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . .[/go]

We look at some more basic shapes here.
Your exchange of ( :w5:

atari -

extend ) is a kind of 'common mistake' --
you must ask yourself: why atari ? Why do you send Black out so nicely for him ?

Instead, W simply descends:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W $$ --------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . 1 . . . . . . $$ | . . . O X X a . . . $$ | . . . O X O X . , $$ | . . . X O O . . . . $$ | . . . b . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . .[/go]

Now, you see W has a problem with the (a) cut.

Suppose B also descends; W cuts with :w2:

-- now the 3 :bc:

stones are in trouble, with only 2 liberties left:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B $$ --------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . O . . . . . . $$ | . . . O B B 2 . . . $$ | . . . O B O X . , $$ | . . 1 X O O . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . .[/go]

B can try to resist a bit; B must connect with :b3:

; after

, B has only 3 liberties left --
2 liberties + 1 shared liberty with W;
W has 4 outside liberties and 1 shared liberty:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B $$ --------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . O . 3 1 4 . . $$ | . . . O X X O 2 . . $$ | . . . O X O X . , $$ | . . X X O O . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . .[/go]

Author:	EdLee [ Sun Jun 12, 2016 5:42 pm ]
Post subject:
If B connects the (a) cut, here's one continuation: Click Here To Show Diagram Code `[go]$$B $$ --------------------- $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . $$ \| . 7 . O . . . . . . $$ \| . 8 . O X X 1 . . . $$ \| . 5 . O X O X . , $$ \| . . 3 X O O . . . . $$ \| . 6 4 2 . . . . . . $$ \| . . . . . . . . . .[/go]` You can play around with the variations here and see what you discover. One basic shape lesson here: notice the atari W wants is this ( - ) exchange, where W takes the outside and forces B to take the inside. Compare this with your exchange of ( - ) in post 12.

Author:	EdLee [ Sun Jun 12, 2016 5:47 pm ]
Post subject:
Hi Babelardus, We see that after drops, B has two problems -- (a) and (b) -- B cannot fix both of them. White has miai of (a) and (b): Click Here To Show Diagram Code `[go]$$W $$ --------------------- $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . $$ \| . . . 1 . . . . . . $$ \| . . . O X X a . . . $$ \| . . . O B O X . , $$ \| . . . X W O . . . . $$ \| . . . b . . . . . . $$ \| . . . . . . . . . .[/go]` One reason is B made the exchange of ( - ), which has reduced B's own liberties -- B now has a shortage of liberties on top.

Author: EdLee [ Sun Jun 12, 2016 5:51 pm ]

Post subject:

Something else interesting about this :w1:

descend:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W $$ --------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . 1 . . . . . . $$ | . . . O X X . . . . $$ | . . . O X O X . , $$ | . . . X O O . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . .[/go]

Suppose W missed this move, and B gets it first instead:
Does this shape remind you of anything we discussed so far:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B $$ --------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . 1 . . . . . . $$ | . . . O X X . . . . $$ | . . . O X O X . , $$ | . . . X O O . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . .[/go]

Author: EdLee [ Sun Jun 12, 2016 6:03 pm ]

Post subject:

Hi Babelardus,

Depending on the global situation ( the whole board ),
suppose the 2 :wc:

stones are not important to White:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B $$ --------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . O X X . . . . $$ | . . . O 1 W X . , $$ | . . . . . W . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . .[/go]

Then White even has the option to give up the 2 stones,
and take a lot of territory on the left:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B $$ --------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . O X X . . . . $$ | . . . O X O X . , $$ | . . . 2 . O . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . .[/go]

I'm not saying that's the situation in your variation.
I'm saying for certain board positions, this is a possibility for White to consider.
The key word here is the global perspective:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B $$ --------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . O X X . . . . $$ | . . . O X O X . , $$ | . . . O 3 O . . . . $$ | . . . 4 . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . .[/go]

Author:	Bill Spight [ Sun Jun 12, 2016 8:56 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: A typical game of mine against GNU Go
While I am sure that there are many plays that could use improvement, I tried to find where the game was lost. I think that the game was close at around move 100, but White quickly took the lead. Go to move 101. Main focus: Do not follow your opponent around. Look for moves that threaten the life of groups or secure life while threatening to take away potential territory. Look for double sente.

Author:	Babelardus [ Mon Jun 13, 2016 4:20 am ]
Post subject:	Re: A typical game of mine against GNU Go
Bill and EdLee: Thanks for taking the time to take a look at the game. I'll definitely have to pick up a book on shapes (and joseki as well, as I don't know enough of them either). Mostly, in lectures, I see people saying that 'this is bad shape' or 'good shape', without really explaining why. So now, I often make a shape because I know it's a good shape, but don't understand why. I also play Joseki's without really understanding why they are equal. I see that I indeed missed quite some opportunities around move 100 (and at other points in the game as well, probably). I also see that I seem to be way too afraid to play things like the hane or knight's jump, for fear of cutting and/or disconnecting; I'm playing too passive.

Author: EdLee [ Mon Jun 13, 2016 5:23 am ]

Post subject:

Babelardus wrote:

I see people saying that 'this is bad shape' or 'good shape', without really explaining why. So now, I often make a shape because I know it's a good shape, but don't understand why.

Hi Babelardus,

Yes; this is a common experience.

On the topic of good v. bad shapes,
going back to post 4 -- as discussed,
your empty triangle :white:

(a) is bad shape --
the natural move is block with :w2:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B Reference shape $$ --------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . 2 1 X . . . . $$ | . . . O a O X . . , $$ | . . . . . O . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . .[/go]

However, even if you're worried about the :black:

(a) push,
you can still do better than (a) -- this fixes it:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B Var 1 $$ --------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . 1 X . . . . $$ | . . 2 O . O X . . , $$ | . . . . . O . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . .[/go]

Or:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B Var 2 $$ --------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . 1 X . . . . $$ | . . . O . O X . . , $$ | . . . . . O . . . . $$ | . . . 2 . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . .[/go]

Of course, :w2:

block in the Reference diagram is still the best,
but at least you could consider Vars 1 & 2,
instead of the empty triangle connect.

Author:	Bill Spight [ Mon Jun 13, 2016 7:10 am ]
Post subject:	Re: A typical game of mine against GNU Go
BTW, best not to use [] in comments. Eidogo seems to have trouble with that. In the SGF file I uploaded White had lost four stones on the board by move 100. I corrected [] to O, and the file looks OK now. Here is what happened. In your uploaded file, [] in the comments looks like this: [\]. Eidogo handles that fine. But GoWrite does not, because there are too many "["s in the file. So GoWrite converts that to \[\]. Eidogo responds by not showing the play that the comment goes with.

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