Just lost the online game below. There are a few of my comments in the SGF. Triangles usually indicated moves I considered.

My guess on why I lost the game is that I defended my territory rather than attacking back. By harassing me he got so much of the outside, I no longer could invade him -- since my stones had nowhere to run to.
Also I am really really bad at fighting. Whatever lines I read during the game, often do not happen. Opponents tend to play some "magic" moves I had not considered - often to my detriment. So my style is often very conservative in fights - expecting the unexpected.

I am around 10k so, pretty much anyone could have something helpful to say

Thanks for any advice.

A bit of my thoughts:

First of all @ Score Estimator has no clue especially not in the opening!

yes o7 better but not a big deal I think, your mave leaves less aji, that is also good.
I would consider to play elsewhere, "play away from strength" and your bottom right is litereally extremely strong. If you absolutely want to play right side, I would therefore play much more to the top, to support the corner, as you "wall" is really an alive corner and doesnt need any support. My feeling would also be to approach bottom right from f3, cause it feels like would want to pincer(because otherwise you extend on the side and his wall is kinda stupid), but after that you can take the corner and the bottom side doesnt feel that big anymore, though maybe that is my "head through the wall"-style .Calmer choice would be to approach from c6 and give him the bottom
If you played 17 here(would have been better imo), you wouldnt want to play 19 right now, would you? My feeling would still be f3. If he still pincers and chooses bottom side his San-ren-sei is kinda de-valued, else you extend to j3 and can be happy
Also notice all triangles are in "your area" of the board-why?

To be sure here you definitely need to do a lot of reading, but 2 reasons, why this goes against my feeling.
1. "Extend after crosscut"
2. On the bottom right you are very strong. You would ideally want to play from the top, to strenthen the waker side and "push him against your strength". Therefore, I would start with considering q12(extends the waker side) or maybe atari r12 and then extend r9, but really it's about reading, so maybe your move is right. Important is that you tried to read something here

The result at seems bad for you. You put a lot of stones on the right before(in fact, nowhere else on the board), now w has a strong group there and your r9 stones make the bottom right very overconcentrated. seems to have been wrong, either you did not read this result, or you misjudged it.

seems slow, why not f17?(approaching a corner is usally bigger than side extensios, especially here, as you already got a Stone on the side and a keime protecting your corner. White would not get in there now)
yes, Alphago likes 3-3 but Humans thinking is, that this feels to early. Locally in this corner, I would still approach from f3

whites bottom side wall he made in the lower right is now playing perfectly, but you managed to misplace his d10 stone a little. Hard to say, who is better off, but I wouldnt play the 3-3 in this situation, cause I dont like it too much for b.

This result seems good for b with nice shape towards the top. Maybe w chose the wrong variation? I would leave as a ko threat, w is not gonna play there now.

o18 is absolutely HUGE!!!(he destroys your top pontential in sente!). At r15 there doesnt seem to happen anything too bad. After you play s16, I dont quite believe the cut works. Did you maybe not recognize, that aimed at 018?(before he couldnt do that, you would cut at 66(there is a ko there, but that seems risky for white))

I think the main problem is you played too much in one area (17,19,29), too close to strength(17,23) and did something to fight his potential too late (if you have one group with a base in an area early, this gives you more flexibility when reducing later) and you made tactical mistakes(23,67)

Thank you for the comments Schachus!

Interesting to hear your point of view, and you might be right.

Regarding NOT approaching corners, I should write a separate piece about that. Maybe I have gone down the wrong path in my thinking... and it has nothing to do with alphago.


I tried to follow Bruce Wilcox "Sector fights" here. He says that walls are urgent, and when you have a wall it is urgent to extend from them. Hence my move. Maybe he is wrong. Maybe it is not applicable here since my wall is already "alive".

How can I tell?


Too slow you say, so how do I make points -- they WILL invade when they can.


About the fight at , I spent over two minutes trying to read out the different options (which is a lot in an online game). I did foresee what happened, and thought the large move at K16 compensated for his group. The other lines I read looked worse to me than the game, or looked too messy for me to judge.

What would have been a better way to play?



About / O18. Yes, that was the other move I considered, but did not realize how much it would erase my territory to on top. Considered the right side and top about equal in size, and just picked R17 for no reason.


My experience is also that I cannot make points without making slow moves like and . In 10k games EVERY space larger than two WILL get invaded. So gotta the points while you can.


Thank you once more for looking at my terrible play, and I am trying to somehow merge your comments with what I thought I knew.

More of a question than suggestion since we are at the same level.

For move 23, I had a different reaction to Q10, and I'm curious what you think. You seem to feel like this lets white live on the side and destroy your territory. It sounds like you think you should be able to kill white outright. Is that reasonable? My take was that R11 offers black a choice take the outside or keep some extra territory on the right. I don't think black can get both.

My thinking is that if black plays Q10 and white just quietly takes up a small position on the right side, the sequence would go a bit like this (cribbing from your later moves in the game with the 3-3 invasion). This looks quite a bit better for black to me than the game at move 55. (Is that a fair evaluation?) White could probably resist being closed in with the hane at Q12. But after this move, it becomes much more difficult to settle the group. And black can continue to make the offer of life in exchange for influence.

I've added some comments to the sgf:




For many of your questions, I think you should look carefully at what your opponent does in contrast to your own moves - they make big extensions, don't protect their corners (you invade both), and don't strongly attack either of your own corners. And yet, they win by plenty. I get the impression that you would not consider playing this way, but this game is a great example of how a large-scale framework is more valuable than the individual moves that make it might have seemed at the time.

Generally, walls don't do anything on their own, they need the extension both to be stable (and not get attacked) and to potentially surround territory. But here, your wall is 100% safe and surrounding territory - the extension isn't small, but it's much less important than normal just because white moves on the right threaten nothing.



I think in general it's important to play moves that you believe *should* work, so that you can learn how to make sure they do work. If you're adjusting your strategy to avoid weak invasions, you're playing down to your opponent's level - your moves are still bad, but they're actually bad by being slow, rather than just seeming bad because you don't know how to follow up. It doesn't sound like you believe these regular invasions should be good (and they shouldn't), so if you want to improve then you need to play calmly to punish them rather than fearing them. A key point is that you often want to leave your opponent's stones weak even if the position remains unsettled, because this way when they invade elsewhere and make more weak groups, it's often surprisingly easy to kill one of them.

Hi Tapani,

I'm only a very low-ranked 4k (who lost like 18 out of her last 20 games :'D), but I'll give it a try since I'm trying to fight the same problem. I'll mostly comment about the opening because that's where you made the crucial mistakes that cost you the game.

6 - this is usually a move to reduce a moyo / double-wing formation. I haven't seen it played this early in the game, either. I have a strong urge to tenuki here since your corner is strong and he can't do anything horribly to your stones there with just one move. I'd approach one of white's corners now.

15 - Yes, O7 would definitely have been better.

16 - Game estimator is complete rubbish 90% of the time and this early in the game even more. I strongly recommend not to use it. It's indefinitely better to learn to count yourself, thatt'll make you much stronger! You don't have to be absolutely exact at your level, just comparing the size of territories your opponent has staked out with the size of your territories (and counting in komi) is sufficient to give you a good idea of how the game is at that point.

17 - This is a good move but it's also very passive and slow. Approaching a corner of his is much more urgent - how about upper left corner, around F17? Splitting the left side is also a nice idea. If he invades your right side you shouldn't be too sad since you'll give him hell thanks to your strong stones in the lower right corner and will be able to build new strength and/or territory while doing so. >:-) Always remember that strength is not there to build territory but to fight.

19 - Definitely too passive. his framework is now bigger than yours so you have to expand yours and/or hinder his development. Approaching upper left corner ist very big and urgent!

20 - Greedy overplay. Rejoice and be happy as he willingly asks you to make his life hell from now on. I like your answer here too. R14 is very close to block so he won't be able to make a base easily since you'll block the bottom and chase him out. I love this one sentence In-Seong Hwan once said in Yunguseng: "If you shake your opponent, points will start falling out for you to grab."

23 - I don't like the hane/atari since it makes white strong. I'd just nobi at R9 to help the weaker stone (it's usually the one that'a closer to the botom/corner) and then he'll have a hard time settling. He'll either give you much territory if he hanes at P11 (which he wouldn't do) or give you a nice shape if he plays the other hane to escape with his invasion stone. Either way I cannot see a bad result here for black. The white group'll be suffering from bad shape and lack of freedom to develop all the way to safety, only running but not making any points.

28 - In contrast, white now got a superbly strong shape. K16 wasn't bad, but white now has strength radiating throughout the board and it becomes urgent that black invades somewhere asap. At this point I prefer white already.

29 - Way too passive and too small again. You have to do something about that moyo white built and invade now.

31 - Good idea to ignore his move (don't really get it either, maybe he still thinks his group weak). I'm not 100% sure myself where to invade, there are many, many options. Maybe a stronger player can give a few ideas here. I'd have played a bit more from the side to destroy more potential territory, though, like F3 for example. But since white has a good position on the lower side AND on the left, it's really not easy for black.. Invading the corner gives white superb strength to math for his wall on the right side, too, so the bottom area is almost territory now.

43 - Wrong direction. I'm sorry I cannot really give you another option but here you give white yet MORE strength, this time towards the left side. The result you came to is actually a joseki, but it's a bad result for black. All in all black has now lmost no strength towards the center and "only" more or less secure points. White has a strength that radiates throughout the board and will assist in any fight that will happen from now on. This is, in my opinion, black's biggest weakness. Go is a game of balance and you should strive for territory as well as influence/strength. Of you only play on the 3rd line, your opponent will be in a much better position to fight if you ever have to come into his area of influence.

70 - This result is - as you know yourself - horrible for black. You must play O17 and not R15 to prevent your top area from crumbling like in the game. You played N17 to strengthen your upper side but it wasn't able to help you a bit in this fight. Actually, it's like you passed when you played N17. Although I must say that white took pretty good advantage of this area.

73 - Yes, your invasions should be living, too. However, it's almost too late now. White is strong everywhere and you'll have hell making live in this iceland. When you invade you should always
a) have the possibility to make 2 eyes, for example by poking at some of your opponents weak spots
b) have the chance to link up with your friendly stones (strength helps a LOT here - imagine e.g. tengen would be a black stone and how this would change the game)
However...

75 - is in my opinion a great move! If you had started with it and THEN played 73, I see some small chances that something *MIGHT* have worked. Sometimes the order of the moves is very important.

Your following reductions are all quite nice, but unfortunately it's a bit late already..

119 - That's too much. I can see no possible way for it to live.


Like I said it was your opening that cost you the game here. You played almost axclusively on one side of the board during the first almost 30 moves - that's just WAY too much. White on the other hand was able to stake out much larger areas of influency on the rest of the board which helped him greatly in the fighting later.
I think it's most important for you to remember that you just cannot keep everthing you stake out in the beginning. But, your opponent won't be able to do that, either - no matter how bad you think yourself at fighting. I don't think that you are worse at that than others at your level, but at least in this game you lack the support of your stones.

I'd like to offer you this advice:
1. I think it would be very good for you to read a chapter or two in Opening theory made easy by Otake Hideo. It's a really good book to read about the opening as it explains the different levels of urgent moves in the opening.

2. I know myself how hard and unhelpful this is, but: BE. MORE. CONFIDENT. There's no way your opponent will always get the better of you! You have a good sense of direction, this will help you. And also: Don't focus too much on your own weaknesses and (potential) mistakes. Your opponent also makes plenty of mistakes! If he would make less or less crucial mistakes, he'd be a lot stronger than 8k! You should watch out more for your opponents mistakes & weaknesses, gather all your courage and "kindly" point your finger there. I'm absolutely sure you'll have some good results then. For some practical tipps I'd recommend Attack & Defense by James Davies. It's one of the best books there is out there and you'll learn tons from it. You won't be abble to get everything by reading it once, but this is a book that'll walk the way to 1d with you.

I hope that my comments were a bit useful... Keep at it and good luck!

_________________

its not so easy I think. Some variation for my suggestion at :



I must admit, that also in my lines, I dont really like the game for b too much..

maybe the others are right and extendinding the other side is better. The problem I have with my line is that r14 ends up overconcentrated in it.

Some quick comments:


Hane at O-04, cutting White in two. Yes, there will be tactical shenanigans, but 1) your opponent will have trouble with them, as well; 2) locally you will have 1-2 stones more than your opponent. If anybody should be afraid, it is he.

It is all right to be afraid of tactical complications, but if you want to improve, seek them out, anyway. Especially if, as here, you have the advantage in the number of stones. If you stop always trying to “secure the corner first”, you can make rapid progress.

Is this playable? Yes! It’s the only play.

You are right, O-07 is definitely better. P-06 is a 15 kyu error.

Yes, White has the edge. But one that is only slightly perceptible at the 9 kyu level.



You are not extending from a wall, you are extending from a strong, living group. One step closer would have been worse (over-concentration). If you are going to play on the right side at this point, R-14 is much better. But even then, Black has too many stones on one side.

Definite over-concentration.

I’ve seen enough. To paraphrase the Gateless Gate, to enter the true path, be as free as the sky: Do not make territory. (Let it happen.)

Edit:

If you don't make territory in the first place, you don't have to defend it.

_________________
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins

Visualize whirled peas.

Everything with love. Stay safe.

Very good! Keep it up.



You are already good enough so that you do not need to make slow plays to make points. That is your fear talking. Be bold.

_________________
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins

Visualize whirled peas.

Everything with love. Stay safe.

Wow.

Such overwhelming responses. So many good and interesting things being said here.

Most important is pointing out me being too pessimistic.

That is probably temporary, have had a bit of losing streak lately - and started to ... overcompensate (read: going on tilt) for what I happen to feel are the reasons for my losses. (Getting succesfully invaded everywhere, my big move stones killed off and my invasions dying ... ).

Many of you tell me that score estimator is garbage, especially early on, which I know it is. I still use it *after* the games (and never during) to try to find where the big mistakes are. Are there any better tools for this?


@BlindGroup (and others):

The reason why I rejected the extension (which was one of the first moves I considered), was that I thought I'd end up in a situation like:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Bc
$$---------------------
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . X . 5 . |
$$ . . . . . . . 3 4 . |
$$ . . . . . . . X 2 . |
$$ . . . . . . 5 4 . . |
$$ . . . T T . 3 2 . . |
$$ . . . T T . X O . . |
$$ . . . T T . 1 6 . . |
$$ . . . . T . . 7 8 . |
$$ . . . . . . . 9 0 . |
$$ . . . . . . . . 1 . |
$$ . . . O X X X . . . |
$$ . . . O X O . . . . |
$$ . . O . O X , X . . |
$$ . . . . O X . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$---------------------
$$[/go]

white lives in sente, making some 10p, and can toss in a stone around O12 to negate the influence of blacks wall. Thought fighting was better for black.


@afar

Thank you very very much for the detailed review, which in turn raises more questions.

Say that I play F3 instead of invading. White almost certainly pincers at H3, it pretty much is the standard response (at 10k). What does black do after that ... well the standard joseki is to invade. So the result is the same as the game, except black has a given away a stone at F3 first?

Thank you for the F16 idea. Did not know that was the standard response. Vaguely recognized the double hane sequence during the game, seen it long time ago in a video somewhere.

As others have pointed out seems to have been a huge mistake by me. This is the kind of feedback that I really have to look into, since my "value network" did not give a clear signal between O18 and R15 -- while ther should have been.
Actually I thought the right side was dead unless I played R15, could not read out the capturing race. But even if W gets the right side, O18 might still be preferable?

The reason why I stopped the invasion at the bottom was that he killed me, was a move I had not seen at all. Like a blow from nowhere. Seems like I have a blind side towards clamps, they often take me by surprise.

Here you give me another great piece of advice! B6 is NOT sente??

How about? ( I do believe you, but sometimes I need .. to get convinced.. rather than take it at face value )

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$W
$$| . . . . . . .
$$| . O O . . . .
$$| 1 X O . . . .
$$| . X O . . . .
$$| . 2 X O . . .
$$| T . X O . O .
$$| T T X X O . .
$$| . . 4 3 . . .
$$ --------------[/go]

And the triangle moves by white look scary to me?

Thank you very much for the comments.


@Ember

Thank you as well for reviewing my game, and for recommending me books to read to improve. Also for telling me to stick to the basic principles I know. Losing too many games to opponents who do not, makes me sometimes question them.

Others have mentioned attack and defence as well, maybe it is worth trying to get hold of.


@Bill

Thank you too for looking at my game. What you say has been said by others, and also I suspected as much when I posted. Too many , too small territorial moves.

You're probably still undervaluing the wall, it isn't that worrying for white to play there (although note that it would be harder for him to do so if P6 were at O7!).

A more important point is, you don't have to give white sente. For instance, in your sequence, you could tenuki at move 9. This gives white some followups, but he can't break out into the centre or go very far into the corner, so you should consider these as big endgame moves rather than being locally essential - especially compared to the value of sente.

You can also try to play more harshly, e.g. playing move 5 one space above. This makes black's hane at 2 not sente, at the cost of leaving you some weaknesses. However, when you have many stones nearby, these weaknesses are often not a problem for you - this is a key point about local fights like this.

Personally, if I were white I'd at least seriously consider tenuki instead of following up here - black's move leaves room to live on the side later, but it seems quite small to do so in gote right now while giving black a wall, compared to the size of moves on the top or left of the board.



This is a good question, and actually deciding if this is good can be a relatively high level thing to do. The key difference is that when you invade the corner, white can no longer play the normal sequence with a hane at C5, so black doesn't get sealed in the same way. Also, the black stone at F3 would retain some aji to maybe escape or cause trouble later. In contrast, when you just take the corner directly, black's territory is smaller while white's wall is better and has no weaknesses at all. This is why your invasion later was doomed - you really had nothing at all to work with, it isn't that you played wrong.

White can try to counter this in various ways, such as by playing E2 or otherwise taking the corner, but in general black can then aim to make space on the bottom instead, in which case the N5 group might become weak. It's not automatically good for black, but it's a neat way to keep the situation locally interesting without just submitting to white's strength.


This is tough to judge, but yes, it's big enough that you should at least think about sacrificing the right side. Note that white can only break through the right side in gote (even if it worked), so black gets his chance to play a big move on the bottom.


It's fair to be concerned, but ultimately you just have to read it .

You can make it simpler by playing differently (I've changed the diagram to show an example). Black then has excellent eyeshape that should be clearly alive.

BTW, here is something that you should learn.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Wc White to play
$$ | O O O . . . O
$$ | O X O . . . .
$$ | X X O . . . .
$$ | . X X O . . .
$$ | . . X O . O .
$$ | . . X X O O X
$$ | . . . X X O .
$$ --------------[/go]

The proverb says that with 8 open points in the corner, Black is alive. But that does not mean that Black has any territory.

White to play.

_________________
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins

Visualize whirled peas.

Everything with love. Stay safe.

Knowing how to do it is in my opinion not only the best but only reliable tool there is (until they someday releasy AlphaGo for everybody to play against on their super modern smartphones). I don't think there's an easier way - if you want to have it done properly, do it yourself.

_________________

@Schachus

Thank you for the analysis of the lines. Actually I think I read something similar to your preferred line during the game, but did not like it. Thought I lost some 20 points of potential territory adjacent to my wall, while keeping some 6 points adjacent to my corner.

Not 100% sure of my thinking anymore.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Bc
$$---------------------
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . 1 . . . |
$$ . . . . . . X O 5 . |
$$ . . . . . . O X 3 . |
$$ . . . . . 6 . 2 4 . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . O X X X T T . |
$$ . . . O X O . . . . |
$$ . . O . O X , X . . |
$$ . . . . O X . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$---------------------
$$[/go]

while my reading was not this clear (it is far more fuzzy in my head), but expected the outcome to be something like this: white running out, and jumping in even deeper when he gets chance.


@afar:

Thanks! Extending towards the corner with is a neat trick too, maybe useful in other situations as well! Never seen that before.

@Bill:

Not heard that proverb, but heard a rule of thumb about 8 points of eyespace. Even if I am more than capable of dying with 8 points of eyespace...

You should also learn this tesuji.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code

[go]$$Bc
$$---------------------
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . 1 . . . |
$$ . . . . . . X O 5 . |
$$ . . . . . . O X 3 . |
$$ . . . . . . 4 2 . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . O X X X . . . |
$$ . . . O X O . . . . |
$$ . . O . O X , X . . |
$$ . . . . O X . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . . . |
$$---------------------[/go]

threatens . This way, White does not have to come back and protect against the cut.



Most go proverbs are rules of thumb.

You can die, but as White can you force Black to make seki or a ko which White takes first?

_________________
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins

Visualize whirled peas.

Everything with love. Stay safe.

oh yeah, dont know why I missed that..