Life In 19x19
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Beginnerish. . .
http://www.lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=1477		 Page 1 of 2
Author:  CygnusX1 [ Tue Aug 24, 2010 11:06 pm ]
Post subject:  Beginnerish. . .
. . .but definitely weak. I started a coupla years ago, but played rarely. Now I want to come back to Go with full force. I play and study whenever I can. Any clues, tips, etc. are more than welcome.



I'm DethGo btw. ^_^
Author:  CarlJung [ Wed Aug 25, 2010 12:27 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Beginnerish. . .
12, I'd take the corner instead at c4. Seems submissive but pressing down like you did invites a difficult fight heavy group if B cuts at D7. Perhaps its possible to keep running on the fourth line at D7 instead of pushing down?

20, jumping invites a difficult cut at both d10 and d8. Perhaps play solidly at d10 or d8.

34, Now you're paying the price of having been cut. If you run out you damage the other stones. If you take the corner you'll get shut in.

Edit: Now that I look at the rest, you didn't settle the lower left corner until move 170. How would you have managed a knights move by black down there? Could you have lived? It's huge.
Author:  entropi [ Wed Aug 25, 2010 12:38 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Beginnerish. . .
Abstract: Three general advices: "play on 9x9", "study basic L&D", "connect your stones"

When I started playing I have been told that it was recommended to play exclusively on 9x9 board until you are around 15 kyu.
I did so and when I switched to 19x19 board some time later, I realized I was already around 9 kyu.

The problem with 19x19 board at the beginning is that the strategical concepts which are far too difficult for your level are more emphasized than on 9x9. First you need to master these "relatively simple" (whatever it means :)) tactics on 9x9 board.

Study basic life and death. For example, try to find how you could kill the black group in the top left corner.

If you anyway insist in playing on 19x19, the motto is "connect your stones, separate your opponents".
Author:  EdLee [ Wed Aug 25, 2010 7:11 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Beginnerish. . .
Try to finish 100 games as quickly as you can afford to. 9x9, 13x13, or 19x19 doesn't matter.

"connect your stones, separate your opponent's" is a bad guideline.
Author:  entropi [ Wed Aug 25, 2010 7:19 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Beginnerish. . .
EdLee wrote:
"connect your stones, separate your opponent's" is a bad guideline.


why?
Author:  Dusk Eagle [ Wed Aug 25, 2010 11:46 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Beginnerish. . .
Is white's move here better for white or black?
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X W . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . X X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Of the circled stones, which are the most important to save?
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X X . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . X X W W W . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O X X X W X W . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

The ones that are cutting two black groups.


White to play
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X X . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . X X O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O X X X O X O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

White to play
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X X . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . X X O O O X O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O X X X . X O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

This move blocks off the corner better than your move at the triangled point. Can you see that black did not need to respond to your move at the triangled point at all?
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X X X O . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . X X . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O X X X . X O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . X X . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | T . X O . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . W O . X . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Can white tenuki here and still live?
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X X X O . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . X X . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O X X X . X O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . X X . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | O . X O . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


White to play
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X X X O . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . X X . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O X X X . X O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O . X X . O . . . X . . . X . . |
$$ | . X X O . . . . . . . X O . . . . . . |
$$ | O . X O . O X . . . O O X O O O . . . |
$$ | . . . O . X . . . , . . X . X , . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . . . . . X . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

That should be plenty to think about in your next games :).
Author:  EdLee [ Thu Aug 26, 2010 11:38 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Beginnerish. . .
entropi wrote:
why?
Because it is wrong, just as it is a bad guideline to suggest "save your stones; kill your opponent's."
It is simply not what Go is about.
Author:  emeraldemon [ Thu Aug 26, 2010 12:02 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Beginnerish. . .
I think cutting and connecting make good general guidelines for play. It's also an idea Dieter Verhofstadt expresses in some SL pages he's written:

http://senseis.xmp.net/?DieterVerhofstadt%2FAdviceToBeginners

http://senseis.xmp.net/?DieterVerhofstadt%2FTeachingExperiences
Author:  hyperpape [ Thu Aug 26, 2010 1:14 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Beginnerish. . .
I think that maybe it's better to convey the message that connecting stones is a way of making strength, separating stones is a way of creating weakness. This leads naturally to the more advanced concepts that disconnecting strong groups is meaningless. The first advice gives an order but doesn't explain why.

So I'm sorta with Ed Lee here.
Author:  daal [ Thu Aug 26, 2010 1:52 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Beginnerish. . .
EdLee wrote:
"connect your stones, separate your opponent's" is a bad guideline.

For whom? Keeping your stones connected and cutting when it is feasible is a fundamental principle. It is a huge factor in making groups weak or strong. It may not be what go is about, but if someone is failing to do it, then it's certainly a good guideline for them. Especially if their previous guideline was: "don't let my opponent capture any of my stones." You have to learn to walk before you can run, no?
Author:  EdLee [ Thu Aug 26, 2010 3:39 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Beginnerish. . .
daal wrote:
It may not be what go is about, but if someone is failing to do it, then it's certainly a good guideline for them.
Not necessarily.

If someone fails to connect or cut when it is important, explain to them why in that situation.
It is not good to present it as an overall blanket guideline ("motto"), especially without some warning and caveat.
Author:  amnal [ Thu Aug 26, 2010 4:00 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Beginnerish. . .
daal wrote:
EdLee wrote:
"connect your stones, separate your opponent's" is a bad guideline.

For whom? Keeping your stones connected and cutting when it is feasible is a fundamental principle. It is a huge factor in making groups weak or strong. It may not be what go is about, but if someone is failing to do it, then it's certainly a good guideline for them. Especially if their previous guideline was: "don't let my opponent capture any of my stones." You have to learn to walk before you can run, no?


I agree with you on this. The argument that this teaches bad habits if the beginner always applies the rule makes sense, but I don't think it's actually at all important in real life (at least, I haven't noticed it being).

I'm not saying that one should present any particular phrase as pure truth to a beginner, but I don't see a problem with generalising in some situations. Where there are exceptions, they'll work it out for themselves, or maybe ask about it, or I'll point it out to them soon enough.
Author:  xed_over [ Thu Aug 26, 2010 4:25 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Beginnerish. . .
EdLee wrote:
It is not good to present it as an overall blanket guideline ("motto"), especially without some warning and caveat.

But isn't that true for every Go Proverb?
Author:  Kirby [ Thu Aug 26, 2010 4:30 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Beginnerish. . .
Down with go proverbs!
Author:  EdLee [ Thu Aug 26, 2010 6:14 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Beginnerish. . .
xed_over wrote:
But isn't that true for every Go Proverb?
Exactly. And this is not even one.
Author:  Maere [ Thu Aug 26, 2010 11:44 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Beginnerish. . .
amnal wrote:
daal wrote:
EdLee wrote:
"connect your stones, separate your opponent's" is a bad guideline.

For whom? Keeping your stones connected and cutting when it is feasible is a fundamental principle. It is a huge factor in making groups weak or strong. It may not be what go is about, but if someone is failing to do it, then it's certainly a good guideline for them. Especially if their previous guideline was: "don't let my opponent capture any of my stones." You have to learn to walk before you can run, no?


I agree with you on this. The argument that this teaches bad habits if the beginner always applies the rule makes sense, but I don't think it's actually at all important in real life (at least, I haven't noticed it being).


Never seen a beginner painfully trying to separate two groups which are perfectly alive? You've got to see some of my earlier games :mrgreen:

I think the statement is good, but it needs a little explanation of the "why" (even a simplified one is enough, maybe with one example to illustrate it). Otherwise it won't make much sense to someone who is new to the game.

That said, I have no idea what go is about. What is go about?
Author:  daal [ Fri Aug 27, 2010 12:04 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Beginnerish. . .
EdLee wrote:
daal wrote:
It may not be what go is about, but if someone is failing to do it, then it's certainly a good guideline for them.
Not necessarily.

If someone fails to connect or cut when it is important, explain to them why in that situation.
It is not good to present it as an overall blanket guideline ("motto"), especially without some warning and caveat.


Maybe you (and Kirby) just don't like the idea of guidelines. I can understand that. Following them blindly is indeed no substitute for thinking. Some people like them though to get past their initial confusion. I'm one of them. I remember when I was starting out on a 19x19 board, often, particularly in the middle game, I had no idea what to think about. Having a guideline such as "keep you stones connected and your opponents separated" gave me a starting point - something to think about along the lines of: Can my opponent separate my stones? Will that endanger my group? Can I do something about it? etc. This gave me something to try to read out, and even if it wasn't the most important thing to be reading, it did contribute to my strength. I doubt that many people need to be reminded that a guideline or a proverb is not always true. They don't usually dictate a persons actions; they just serve to remind you that it might be a good idea to look in a certain direction.
Author:  CarlJung [ Fri Aug 27, 2010 12:29 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Beginnerish. . .
Kirby wrote:
Down with go proverbs!


But... if I don't have proverbs to hold my hand, I would have to read things out on my own. Clearly, proverbs are the way to go.
Author:  entropi [ Fri Aug 27, 2010 12:38 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Beginnerish. . .
EdLee wrote:
entropi wrote:
why?
Because it is wrong, just as it is a bad guideline to suggest "save your stones; kill your opponent's."
It is simply not what Go is about.


It is obviously not wrong, maybe what you mean is it is too ambiguous, or incomplete, or misunderstanable???

A better approach for helping the original poster would be trying to make it clearer, instead of saying "this is wrong" for a basic principle.

It is a guideline that was certainly valuable for me as a beginner on 19x19. It maybe less valuable on smaller boards but it is certainly not wrong. A beginner around 30-20kyu would be happy to create a number of small living groups without understanding its drawbacks. This is a guideline for letting him consider trying to see the bigger picture.

What Go is about is making more points than your opponent. I honestly hope someone will not challenge that, otherwise I may jump down 9 floors :) Would "make more points than your opponent" be the only valid motto or can there possibly be other valuable guidelines?

I don't believe that this discussion helps anything other than further confusing the original poster.
Author:  CygnusX1 [ Fri Aug 27, 2010 1:15 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Beginnerish. . .
JAYzus!!! Calm down ya'll! Look, I'll be honest, I'm not big on generalizations (even though that in itself is a generalization, but. . .), we use them whether we like it or not: we're human, we categorize, we all got our axiomatic bias on somethin' or other like political and philosophical and all that doohonkey. I see for and against the proverbs mentioned. Anyway, I have been playing some 9x9. I can see the value in that, and I am going to play more. Furthermore, what struck me most about Mr. Verhofstadt's advice was something I('d like to think that I) kinda do with everything: "Maintain a critical attitude and continue to question what you think you know". Based solely on that, I believe I've found my new life-long game. Don't plan on being a 9p, as nice as that'd be. . .
In conclusion I think I'm rambling on so you lot can continue in whatever fashion you deem appropriate.

Laters, I'll check back in in a day or two.
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