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Is Leela good enough to use as a "review partner"?
http://www.lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=15044		 Page 1 of 1
Author:  Jujube [ Wed Oct 18, 2017 3:26 pm ]
Post subject:  Is Leela good enough to use as a "review partner"?
I played a quick game, I don't play much these days, but I like to play now and again. It was quite scrappy. I was reviewing it myself for a bit, some quick thoughts:

- I wasn't sure if I could do something better in the opening in the top right
- I made a mistake in the opening by losing 3 stones
- I fought back using the opponent's weak groups
- My opponent made some "toothpaste" mistakes as Ed Lee would say
- I was "playing loose" with some weak groups (e.g. on the right side) and my opponent could have cut me up good and proper I think
- If I hadn't managed to capture the opponent's bottom-left group, the game would have been quite close

After I had a 10 minute look after the game, I loaded it in Leela and clicked through on analysis mode. What do you think of engines as "review partners" to be used after a self-review to affirm or reject ideas that I had during the review? Are they strong enough to do this in your opinion?

Here is the game.



Attachments:
review.sgf [5.35 KiB]
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Author:  jeromie [ Wed Oct 18, 2017 3:41 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Is Leela good enough to use as a "review partner"?
Leela is absolutely strong enough to be a useful review partner. This doesn’t mean you can use every suggested move (you may not be strong enough for the follow up), but it can at least help you identify major mistakes, get new ideas, and know whether you were ahead or behind at any given point.
Author:  mvk20 [ Thu Oct 19, 2017 8:03 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Is Leela good enough to use as a "review partner"?
When you are replaying and analyzing a game with Leela, is there a way for it to display what the next move actually was in the game? I can see where it shows the best move, and other candidates, the win percentages that correspond to each. But what would be really nice would be to see a list of candidates, with the actual move marked, so you could see at a glance, "Oh, I should have moved there, but I moved here instead." Or, in a best case scenario, "I should have moved there, and I actually did this time!" As it is, best I can figure out is to arrow forward, look at the move, then arrow back and let it analyze, which is pretty cumbersome. Am I missing a display option? Thanks!
Author:  EdLee [ Thu Oct 19, 2017 8:18 am ]
Post subject: 
Hi jujube, jeromie, mvk,

Is Leela available on Windows, OSX, iOS ? Thanks.
Author:  aTan [ Thu Oct 19, 2017 8:27 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Is Leela good enough to use as a "review partner"?
This is how game reviewed by leela (using python script) could looks like, in attached files. Including win-rate chart.

Image

Attachments:
game_4_graph.pdf [13.91 KiB]
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game_4.sgf [59.11 KiB]
Downloaded 564 times
Author:  mvk20 [ Thu Oct 19, 2017 8:31 am ]
Post subject:  Re:
EdLee wrote:
Hi jujube, jeromie, mvk,

Is Leela available on Windows, OSX, iOS ? Thanks.

Looks like Windows, macOS and Ubuntu.
Author:  EdLee [ Thu Oct 19, 2017 8:33 am ]
Post subject: 
Hi mvk,

Thanks; which version and OS are you using for Leela ?
Author:  gowan [ Thu Oct 19, 2017 8:46 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Is Leela good enough to use as a "review partner"?
Can you have Leela play either color in a position you set up? If so then you can ask Leela which move(s) you could play. Since Leela can't explain reasons for moves you'll have to try to see why Leela's choices are good, but that is another opportunity to learn :)
Author:  Jujube [ Thu Oct 19, 2017 10:33 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Is Leela good enough to use as a "review partner"?
gowan wrote:
Can you have Leela play either color in a position you set up? If so then you can ask Leela which move(s) you could play. Since Leela can't explain reasons for moves you'll have to try to see why Leela's choices are good, but that is another opportunity to learn :)


You can hit the '+' button to remember the current position and then play out a variation. Then hit '-' to return to the position ('push' and then 'pop' off the stack). In analysis mode it computes the 'best' moves on the board from the current board position and displays them graphically on the board as 'hot spots' (blue, orange then red), as well as the data being in a separate window.
Author:  Jujube [ Thu Oct 19, 2017 10:35 am ]
Post subject:  Re:
EdLee wrote:
Hi mvk,

Thanks; which version and OS are you using for Leela ?


Not mvk, but I use Windows 10 and Leela GPU Accelerated version. On Linux (OpenSuse Tumbleweed) Leela works fine but I couldn't get it to work with the GPU drivers so was only able to use it in processor-only mode.
Author:  aTan [ Thu Oct 19, 2017 10:39 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Is Leela good enough to use as a "review partner"?
Another example using your game

Attachments:
review_graph.pdf [15.24 KiB]
Downloaded 554 times
review_analyzed.sgf [41.59 KiB]
Downloaded 547 times
Author:  mvk20 [ Thu Oct 19, 2017 11:13 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Re:
Jujube wrote:
EdLee wrote:
Hi mvk,

Thanks; which version and OS are you using for Leela ?


Not mvk, but I use Windows 10 and Leela GPU Accelerated version. On Linux (OpenSuse Tumbleweed) Leela works fine but I couldn't get it to work with the GPU drivers so was only able to use it in processor-only mode.

I'm using the same - Windows 10, GPU Accelerated.

It really works great. When you go through analysis mode it shows the next move as a group of candidates, each with a winning percentage. It does this no matter whose turn it is. Sometimes there is only one or two candidates, sometimes a bunch. Sometimes there is one clear move better than the others, and sometimes there are many that yield close to the same percentage.

The only inconvenience I have is when looking through my own games, I can't see what the next move was. So, it's showing me what should have been played, but I can't compare that with what was actually played without moving it forward, and then it has to do the analysis all over again. That's why I was hoping there was a setting somewhere that gave a marking for the actual next move while showing the candidates for comparison.
Author:  EdLee [ Thu Oct 19, 2017 2:38 pm ]
Post subject: 
Hi mvk, jujube, Thanks.
Quote:
I can't see what the next move was.
There are two independent issues here.
The first one is the software, which seems easy enough to fix (feature to highlight original next move in the game).
The second one is the ability to recall the game;
this will become more easy with time --
usually, we can recall our own moves more easily than our opponent's,
but over time, we can even recall our opponent's moves.
(Exceptions are very memorable or weird moves, by either side. :) )

As a work-around, until they add this nice new feature,
you can study the game beforehand, noticing moves there are interesting
(yours and/or your opponent's) or questionable (where you're not sure).
After you've digested your own game somewhat,
it should be easier when you review it again in analysis mode. :study:
Author:  Gomoto [ Thu Oct 19, 2017 3:36 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Is Leela good enough to use as a "review partner"?
LOL

Original post is not a serious question?
Author:  dfan [ Fri Oct 20, 2017 6:29 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Is Leela good enough to use as a "review partner"?
It seemed like a serious question to me.
Author:  mvk20 [ Fri Oct 20, 2017 7:26 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Is Leela good enough to use as a "review partner"?
I took it as a serious question - I was wondering the same myself, not just in terms of strength, but if the moves were "human" enough that it would work well as a review partner.

EdLee - definitely would be better if/when I can remember the moves of a game a bit better. That might be a while though, particularly for my games on DGS. Pretty hard for me to remember a move an opponent made a month ago or more...I found a reasonable workaround for me - view the game on my iPad as I'm analyzing it on Leela. Then I can see the game's next move, alongside a list of move(s) that work best. Two "clicks" instead of one each move, but better than forcing it to reanalyze every move. The best solution, obviously, would be a viewing option where you could tell it to display the next move if you so choose.
Author:  alphaville [ Sun Oct 22, 2017 1:43 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Is Leela good enough to use as a "review partner"?
Try it out and decide for yourself if you like it as a review partner or not.

I like it very much: it gives me lots of new ideas to play, and it corrects my mistakes.

The only caveat: when it comes to life-and-death, you need to let it run longer since on quick analysis it may miss the status of some groups.
Author:  Jujube [ Wed Oct 25, 2017 3:48 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Is Leela good enough to use as a "review partner"?
aTan wrote:
Another example using your game


Thanks, the script is interesting. How did you interact with Leela is there an API or something? I remember that chess programs (e.g. Fritz, back in the day I had Fritz 8 when I was a chess player) used to be able to output analysed games to PDF. There would be 3 or 4 diagrams per game, and comments and variations. It would be interesting for the same kind of thing to be available as an output from a Go program; ask it to analyse the game, go to work, come home from work, and a fresh print-out of the game is by the printer ready to be looked through on a real board.
Author:  mvk20 [ Thu Oct 26, 2017 6:26 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Is Leela good enough to use as a "review partner"?
About how far to you need to let it run out to be confident that the move(s) it's giving you are indeed the best? Would that be measured in nodes?
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