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 Post subject: Re: Surprising result (imo) in 3-4 approach variation
Post #21 Posted: Wed Jan 10, 2018 12:33 pm 
Lives with ko

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I am following your post with incredible pleasure... pretty much interesting tewari analysis and thickness approximations... :clap: :clap:

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 Post subject: Re: Surprising result (imo) in 3-4 approach variation
Post #22 Posted: Wed Jan 10, 2018 1:27 pm 
Gosei

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My view since the advent of neural nets is:
You do not need to know why a move is good, you just need to know the good move.
The request to explain a move is therefore superfluous.
Just know your moves, if you want to play strong go :twisted:


Quote:
The idiot savant theory of go. ;)


Indeed, neural networks show perhaps the secret to the power of some savants.

But I really think there is a lesson to be learned for the average (Joe) Go aficionado .

1. Rule based knowledge is to be treated with a certain amount of mistrust.
2. Training routine should be heavily based on intuition building activity (aka: spam games and tsumego, rehearsal of pro games, ... )


Edit: Something I found on Wikipedia
Quote:
In savants, says Snyder, the top layer of mental processing —conceptual thinking, making logical deductions— is somehow deactivated. His working hypothesis is that once this layer is inactivate, one can access a startling capacity for recalling the most minute detail or for performing lightning-quick calculations. Snyder's theory has a conclusion of its own: He believes it may be possible someday to create technologies that will allow any non-autistic person to access these abilities.

A little bit of willpower could also be used instead of the technologies :twisted:


Last edited by Gomoto on Wed Jan 10, 2018 4:55 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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 Post subject: Re: Surprising result (imo) in 3-4 approach variation
Post #23 Posted: Wed Jan 10, 2018 1:35 pm 
Gosei

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Edit: OC, Zen is assuming a 7.5 komi to get that advantage for White.


(Not in my case, I used a 6.5 komi setting with Zen 7.)

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 Post subject: Re: Surprising result (imo) in 3-4 approach variation
Post #24 Posted: Wed Jan 10, 2018 6:36 pm 
Lives in gote
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Gomoto wrote:
(Sorry for the thread hijacking)

Pincers (are) were overrated in Go theory.

My view since the advent of neural nets is:
You do not need to know why a move is good, you just need to know the good move.
The request to explain a move is therefore superfluous.
Just know your moves, if you want to play strong go :twisted:


I hope you're being sarcastic.

If you don't know why a move is good, how will you be able to figure out what move to play in a position that's similar to, but not quite the same as, other positions you've seen before? (Or if your opponent doesn't follow joseki as another example.)

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 Post subject: Re: Surprising result (imo) in 3-4 approach variation
Post #25 Posted: Wed Jan 10, 2018 7:13 pm 
Honinbo

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Gomoto wrote:
Something I found on Wikipedia
Quote:
In savants, says Snyder, the top layer of mental processing —conceptual thinking, making logical deductions— is somehow deactivated. His working hypothesis is that once this layer is inactivate, one can access a startling capacity for recalling the most minute detail or for performing lightning-quick calculations. Snyder's theory has a conclusion of its own: He believes it may be possible someday to create technologies that will allow any non-autistic person to access these abilities.

A little bit of willpower could also be used instead of the technologies :twisted:


Willpower? Liquor is quicker. ;)

Actually, I doubt that these abilities are particularly dormant in regular people. Most pros see the right move immediately. Conscious calculation is for checking. (Recall is a different question.)

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 Post subject: Re: Surprising result (imo) in 3-4 approach variation
Post #26 Posted: Wed Jan 10, 2018 11:00 pm 
Honinbo

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Fedya wrote:
Gomoto wrote:
(Sorry for the thread hijacking)

Pincers (are) were overrated in Go theory.

My view since the advent of neural nets is:
You do not need to know why a move is good, you just need to know the good move.
The request to explain a move is therefore superfluous.
Just know your moves, if you want to play strong go :twisted:


I hope you're being sarcastic.

If you don't know why a move is good, how will you be able to figure out what move to play in a position that's similar to, but not quite the same as, other positions you've seen before? (Or if your opponent doesn't follow joseki as another example.)


Neural nets “know” why a move is good. It’s just a representation that is different from how humans think.

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 Post subject: Re: Surprising result (imo) in 3-4 approach variation
Post #27 Posted: Sun Jan 21, 2018 7:45 pm 
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I prefer black, the top side has little value, black has still two 4-4 stones and the left side is easily reducible or at least can be made overconcentrated in some way

(im overconfident in this post)

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