Life In 19x19 :: Ian Butler's Broken Ladder Game

Instead of ( :w14:

), just R12 directly.

A forcing move in itself is just that: a forcing move.
It can be: good for you, neutral, or bad for you.

Quote:

nothing lost.

You lost one peep (S16) and potential to kill the entire corner if things change later. It's aji keshi.

Double check with Leela; maybe it likes :w14:

Well, well. Credit to EdLee for giving a great suggestion of playing my online games with a real goban in front of me.
I played calmly, thought everything out (broken ladder, check!) and I got a big lead at some point.
It was a fun game, too. I enjoyed it very much.

{snip}

Anyway, even though the end was a little blunder, I could play the Go I want to play, and I think that's a success given the past week with my online playing.

you may wonder why I resigned, though. First I believe white is just completely sunk. Running out a broken ladder so long can't be good (unless you're Lee Sedol!). Secondly, I know many of you say "DDK should never resign" and in a way, I agree. But for me Go is more than the game itself and I think the 'Art of Resigning' is equally important to Go than let's say, ladders.
At least this resignation feels right.
If I were to continue and stumble through this game, trying to come back from this big a loss and eventually lose on big points, wasting time of my opponent and so on... Wouldn't feel right.
Comebacks are epic and I have some history with coming back in a game after a loss. But I think my feeling is right that this one is irreparable. Hope you see my point and agree

If so, at least I have my 'art of resigning'-skill down to a Dan level! :cool:

I had the following thoughts going through this:

1. I think 26 should be at N6. Black has to respond to avoid being enclosed.

2. Move 28. You played A, but I think continuing to press on the right might be better since I think black has to respond to avoid being enclosed. I'm imagining something like this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . a . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . X . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X X | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 8 . 6 . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 3 2 4 . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . 5 1 X . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . . | $$ | . . . O . O . . . , . . . O O O X X . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

:w3: -

cuts Black in two. Black is in trouble.

Author:	Ian Butler [ Sat Apr 21, 2018 11:41 am ]
Post subject:	Ian Butler's Broken Ladder Game
Question: What does Lee Sedol have, that I don't have? Answer: A talent for Go! Oh, that's probably why my broken ladder failed. Well, well. Credit to EdLee for giving a great suggestion of playing my online games with a real goban in front of me. I played calmly, thought everything out (broken ladder, check!) and I got a big lead at some point. It was a fun game, too. I enjoyed it very much. The broken ladder is pretty epic, though. A misread on my part, and then I thought I could still fix it! But... Well, you'll see. Anyway, even though the end was a little blunder, I could play the Go I want to play, and I think that's a success given the past week with my online playing. I hope I'm over this "online" thing for now. Even though I lost again, I'm confident the losing streak can't last forever and if it does, I have a great book for 25 kyu players to get me started again Any pointers are welcome. I have reviewed it myself a bit, too, comments in the file itself. At the last move I identify the losing move, but I have two suspects. I also have a crude variation / sketch of how white could've played things out smoother, at least I believe so. Suggestions always appreciated! EDIT: you may wonder why I resigned, though. First I believe white is just completely sunk. Running out a broken ladder so long can't be good (unless you're Lee Sedol!). Secondly, I know many of you say "DDK should never resign" and in a way, I agree. But for me Go is more than the game itself and I think the 'Art of Resigning' is equally important to Go than let's say, ladders. At least this resignation feels right. If I were to continue and stumble through this game, trying to come back from this big a loss and eventually lose on big points, wasting time of my opponent and so on... Wouldn't feel right. Comebacks are epic and I have some history with coming back in a game after a loss. But I think my feeling is right that this one is irreparable. Hope you see my point and agree If so, at least I have my 'art of resigning'-skill down to a Dan level!

Author:	EdLee [ Sat Apr 21, 2018 11:45 am ]
Post subject:
bad habit. tenuki. Instead of ( , ), just R12 directly.

Author:	Ian Butler [ Sat Apr 21, 2018 11:47 am ]
Post subject:	Re:
EdLee wrote: bad habit. tenuki. Even if it's basically a forcing move? EDIT: Quote: Instead of ( , ), just R12 directly. Oh yeah. Wow. Cool move.

Author:	EdLee [ Sat Apr 21, 2018 11:49 am ]
Post subject:
A forcing move in itself is just that: a forcing move. It can be: good for you, neutral, or bad for you. Many at this level play a forcing move for its own sake, without evaluation. Here, is OK, but beware if you play it only because you think it's a forcing move, that's not right (and a bad habit).

Author:	Ian Butler [ Sat Apr 21, 2018 11:51 am ]
Post subject:	Re:
EdLee wrote: A forcing move in itself is just that: a forcing move. It can be: good for you, neutral, or bad for you. In this case I thought it was good for me because it fixed the open skirt + it would give me sente right back. So worst case: nothing lost. Best case: avoided aji/reduction later. Is my reasoning wrong? Or is it just simply a timing/effeciency issue?

Life In 19x19 http://www.lifein19x19.com/

Ian Butler's Broken Ladder Game http://www.lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=15642	Page 1 of 1

Author:	EdLee [ Sat Apr 21, 2018 11:55 am ]
Post subject:
Quote: nothing lost. You lost one peep (S16) and potential to kill the entire corner if things change later. It's aji keshi. B wouldn't start crawling at T13 -- if he does, you're happy to cover him on the 2nd line. So, nobody wants T14 ( not until later ).

Author:	Ian Butler [ Sat Apr 21, 2018 11:58 am ]
Post subject:	Re:
EdLee wrote: Quote: nothing lost. You lost one peep (S16) and potential to kill the entire corner if things change later. It's aji keshi. Interesting. An inside peep like that and killing the corner that way is something that I'd probably never do. But I can kind of see how that extra "free" stone of the peep could help do that. In that case, I understand removing that aji is not the best move. So maybe I'd rate it as a neutral move

Author:	EdLee [ Sat Apr 21, 2018 12:00 pm ]
Post subject:
Double check with Leela; maybe it likes .

Author:	Ian Butler [ Sat Apr 21, 2018 12:05 pm ]
Post subject:	Re:
EdLee wrote: Double check with Leela; maybe it likes . She doesn't She says O17, P16 or R12. It actually drops my win percentage from 62 to 57. I didn't realize it was such a "bad" move. I REALLy have to unlearn the descent, even if it's a reaction to my opponent's descent...

Author:	Bill Spight [ Sat Apr 21, 2018 12:59 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Ian Butler's Broken Ladder Game
Ian Butler wrote: Well, well. Credit to EdLee for giving a great suggestion of playing my online games with a real goban in front of me. I played calmly, thought everything out (broken ladder, check!) and I got a big lead at some point. It was a fun game, too. I enjoyed it very much. {snip} Anyway, even though the end was a little blunder, I could play the Go I want to play, and I think that's a success given the past week with my online playing. Quote: you may wonder why I resigned, though. First I believe white is just completely sunk. Running out a broken ladder so long can't be good (unless you're Lee Sedol!). Secondly, I know many of you say "DDK should never resign" and in a way, I agree. But for me Go is more than the game itself and I think the 'Art of Resigning' is equally important to Go than let's say, ladders. At least this resignation feels right. If I were to continue and stumble through this game, trying to come back from this big a loss and eventually lose on big points, wasting time of my opponent and so on... Wouldn't feel right. Comebacks are epic and I have some history with coming back in a game after a loss. But I think my feeling is right that this one is irreparable. Hope you see my point and agree If so, at least I have my 'art of resigning'-skill down to a Dan level! I guess I'm the main guy to say that DDKs should not resign. The great Sakata was known for not resigning. In one of his commentaries on his own game he said that he did not resign because he wanted to see how bad the result was after he had made 6 mistakes. (He lost by 6 pts.)

Author:	Bill Spight [ Sat Apr 21, 2018 2:00 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Ian Butler's Broken Ladder Game
A few top of the head comments. I would recommend R-12 now, given your style of play. Moi, I would probably play the attachment at P-16. The cutting point at S-15 could be telling. And after I don't need to save the stone. (Glad Leela does not disapprove. ) Does not do much to protect the cutting point at R-13. The problem is that the previous exchange, - has bolstered Black but leaves a weakness for White. It is harder the sacrifice the two stones than the one stone, especially with no play against and . The problem is Black's 3-3 invasion. Atari at S-04. If he makes ko, ignore his threat. Early kos are typically large. I like the fact that you like this play. But it is not so good here. First, White's position on the right side hinders Black's development with his stones in this corner. So Black is not really threatening to play on this point now. Second, the 7 point gap on the bottom is too easy to invade. The top side looks big now. Better on the previous move. But now N-06 is big for both players. If you play there and he ignores it, the atari at P-06 is good. How about B-04? You don't really want Black to invade the corner, do you? Tempting, but it allows Black to connect underneath. The simple solid connection at D-08 looks good. N-06 still looks good. N-06. Eliminates the Black cutting point at P-06. K-05 is better. One good turn deserves another. Atari at O-17. If Black connects at N-16, now atari at Q-17. Then after P-18, R-17, threatening S-17, R-16, and O-18. Very difficult for Black. Horrid. This play not only strengthens Black, it weakens White.

Author:	BlindGroup [ Sat Apr 21, 2018 4:52 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Ian Butler's Broken Ladder Game
I had the following thoughts going through this: 1. I think 26 should be at N6. Black has to respond to avoid being enclosed. 2. Move 28. You played A, but I think continuing to press on the right might be better since I think black has to respond to avoid being enclosed. I'm imagining something like this: Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Wc $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . a . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . X . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X X \| $$ \| . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . 8 . 6 . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . 3 2 4 . . . . . \| $$ \| . . X . . . . . . . . 5 1 X . . X . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . . \| $$ \| . . . O . O . . . , . . . O O O X X . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

Author:	Ian Butler [ Mon Apr 23, 2018 9:11 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Ian Butler's Broken Ladder Game
Haha awesome that you already know "my style" of play thanks for reviewing so many of my games and helping me so often! I see your point on move 26. was the toughest decision in the game (besides the actual ladder). But I felt if black got that point, my 3 stones were even weaker. @BlindGroup A sequence like that would've been much better, you're right. Thanks!

Author:	Bill Spight [ Mon Apr 23, 2018 12:25 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Ian Butler's Broken Ladder Game
BlindGroup wrote: I had the following thoughts going through this: 1. I think 26 should be at N6. Black has to respond to avoid being enclosed. 2. Move 28. You played A, but I think continuing to press on the right might be better since I think black has to respond to avoid being enclosed. I'm imagining something like this: Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Wc $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . a . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . X . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X X \| $$ \| . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . 8 . 6 . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . 3 2 4 . . . . . \| $$ \| . . X . . . . . . . . 5 1 X . . X . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X . . . \| $$ \| . . . O . O . . . , . . . O O O X X . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go] I agree with , but is problematic. Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Wc $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . X . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O X X \| $$ \| . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 . O . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 4 . . . . . \| $$ \| . . X . . . . . . . . . 1 X 3 5 X . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X X 6 . . \| $$ \| . . . O . O . . . , . . . O O O X X . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go] - cuts Black in two. Black is in trouble.

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Author:	BlindGroup [ Mon Apr 23, 2018 4:31 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Ian Butler's Broken Ladder Game
Bill Spight wrote: :w3: - cuts Black in two. Black is in trouble. That's nice! After where would you play as black then? My first thought was 4, but maybe P7 would be better? Both start to make eye shape, move black out, but in each case white can destroy any eye potential. However, after 4, white Q7 destroys the eye in sente. While the destruction of the eye with P7 would be gote.

Author:	mitsun [ Mon Apr 23, 2018 6:25 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Re:
Some things to consider: If you are going to play a forcing exchange (example T13-S16), then come back to defend (example R12), consider omitting the forcing exchange and simply defending. This preserves some of your options (corner aji in this case, in the admittedly unlikely event you later get to invade the corner and peep at S16). It also preserves ko threats. In this particular position, it costs you nothing to wait, since your opponent is never going to play T13 himself (earning just one point in gote). Finally, the forcing move carries a large enough threat that it will remain your privilege (sente) for the forseeable future. There are contrary cases where you should play a forcing move before defending. In particular, if your "forcing" move is sente now, but may not be sente later, you should take it while you can. This frequently happens when you have a group which needs to live in gote, but you can make a few profitable exchanges before living. Provided your forcing moves actually threaten to live, your opponent will answer them now, in order to force you to eventually live in gote. (Clear?) But if you live in gote first, he may not answer your forcing moves later. That is, the exchanges may no longer be sente for you. The proverb is "kikashi before living".