Life In 19x19 :: Game Review Request

Life In 19x19 http://www.lifein19x19.com/

Game Review Request http://www.lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=15779	Page 1 of 1

Author:

jeffb99 [ Sat May 26, 2018 11:55 am ]

Post subject:

Game Review Request

I could use some help with my game. I'm playing B against a slightly stronger opponent. After I lost by about 18 points, I reviewed my play and saw some things that I probably should have done differently. Tell me what you think about these mis-plays and any others that you find.

--My plan in moves 11-33 was to keep my opponent pressed to the 2nd and 3rd line. The wall facing up would give me influence towards the center.
--I think I made a mistake in :b35:

by choosing the upper stone to cap rather than the lower stone at R9. This gave him the chance to run out and severely reduce my chance of larger center territory.
--My upper left corner invasion in move :b41:

seemed like a good idea at the time. But in hindsight, I think it was a bad exchange for me. I got maybe 10 corner points but after it settled out, I realized W now had a strong wall facing the right side.
--I think :b51:

was kinda dumb. My intent was to try and keep W on the right side from connecting to his area at the top. But it didn't work out. I prob would have been better off continuing to solidify area in the upper middle (maybe J12) or moving into C11.
--In :b93:

, I was worried about connecting my 2 groups. I really really REALLY wanted to take H13 or J13 but got paranoid and took N8. Of course my opponent saw the same strategic spot I did and immediately took J12 in the next move :w94:

. So much for my grand plan. :sad:

--Things progressed uneventfully after that. I think I was too timid in not making a stronger invasion in the lower left at B117. But I'm not sure what I could have done there.

Comments on these and other mis-plays welcomed. Of course, if there are any good moves, I'll take that feedback as well!

Thanks!

--Jeff

Attachments:

5-25.sgf [1.27 KiB]
Downloaded 582 times

Author:	Calvin Clark [ Sat May 26, 2018 1:37 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Game Review Request
Some thoughts on the earlier moves. is an unusual joseki choice in this case. If you're thinking that you can press white down when it's 2-1, even when it's your move, you may find that challenging. should be at F3. should just connect at M5. wrong direction. R11 I think this cap is okay. Black is a bit behind at this stage, and pushing toward thickness would be according to theory. The other cap would make black overconcentrated. It's not super, but made things harder for black. Why tenuki? Certainly you need to continue the attack. Hane M11? Press at E15 seems natural. White is low at the top. C18 instead. This descent is a common mistake. Now white E19 is sente, though white can save it and defend the weak group instead. Unnecessary. Black is already alive. After this white manages the weak group and is ahead for the rest of the game. For , you can try this peep instead. It will make white think. If white chooses to live on the side, you can some compensation: Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$B Idea for 37 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . \| $$ \| . . . O . . . . . . O . . O . . X . . \| $$ \| . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 8 . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . O . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . 1 2 . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O 3 O . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 . 6 . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X 4 . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . 5 . \| $$ \| . . . . . X . X X X X O X X . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . O . X . X O O O O O . . , X . . \| $$ \| . . . . . O O O . . . O . . X . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Author:	dfan [ Sat May 26, 2018 4:43 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Game Review Request
jeffb99 wrote: My plan in moves 11-33 was to keep my opponent pressed to the 2nd and 3rd line. The wall facing up would give me influence towards the center. But instead you pushed from behind on the 5th line (their 4th line), and then left cutting points in your wall. I mention this not to be mean but because from your description it wasn't clear whether you thought you had succeeded or not. I think the main problem here is not that you successfully pressed your opponent down but then weren't able to use your wall successfully; it's that you actually got quite a bad local result. That's a giant bottom you gave your opponent by letting him play G3 and F3, especially since he started out split when he first played H3.

Author:	jeffb99 [ Sun May 27, 2018 10:58 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Game Review Request
Calvin Clark wrote: Some thoughts on the earlier moves. wrong direction. R11 Why tenuki? Certainly you need to continue the attack. Hane M11? Thanks for the review! On I pondered hard on direction. I thought I should pincer UP because I judged I was stronger in the upper right corner vs lower right. Are you saying that assessment was incorrect?? On I see your point. I tenuki-ed because I saw the left side as more strategically valuable. I see your point about hane at M11 and continuing to press before looking elsewhere. And I like the way you handled Much better result!! --Jeff

Author:	jeffb99 [ Sun May 27, 2018 11:02 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Game Review Request
dfan wrote: jeffb99 wrote: My plan in moves 11-33 was to keep my opponent pressed to the 2nd and 3rd line. The wall facing up would give me influence towards the center. But instead you pushed from behind on the 5th line (their 4th line), and then left cutting points in your wall. I mention this not to be mean but because from your description it wasn't clear whether you thought you had succeeded or not. I think the main problem here is not that you successfully pressed your opponent down but then weren't able to use your wall successfully; it's that you actually got quite a bad local result. That's a giant bottom you gave your opponent by letting him play G3 and F3, especially since he started out split when he first played H3. I asked for the "good, bad, and ugly" so your comments aren't "mean". I guess I wasn't successful since I didn't contain him to the 2nd line. --Jeff

Author: Joaz Banbeck [ Sun May 27, 2018 3:13 pm ]

Post subject: Re: Game Review Request

11: This gives up the corner for the side, and only is justified if you have a lot on the side. If you had stones at K3 and K5, or stones at K4 and R3, or something similar, then it probably works.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc In this example, the lower side is bigger than the lower left corner. \nSo black 1 is a good strategy. $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . O . . O . . X . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . B . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 2 . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . 1 . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . B . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

13: Your previous move depended upon black stones on the lower side that weren't there. Now, instead of black stones along the lower side, there is a white stone. So the strategy has graduated from unreasonable to preposterous.
( FWIW, white's play at H3 is probably bad too, because you have P3. He should reply at 12 with D6, strengthening his hoshi stone and waiting for a later chance to reduce black's lower side. )
It is time for a new strategy. The most common move in this joseki is F2. It now works very well for you.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bcm13 $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . C . . . C . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . X . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . C . . . . O . . 2 . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

White 14 is a pathetic move, but you will crush him with J4 or H5 if he doesn't. ( Or he can run with H5, and you play F6, and it is probably even worse for him )
You then follow up with one of the circled points - but I am at the extreme end of my knowledge of the theory on this joseki so I won't hazard a guess at which is best.

Author: Calvin Clark [ Sun May 27, 2018 9:46 pm ]

Post subject: Re: Game Review Request

So Joaz has mentioned that :b1:

is a bit odd in this position. I checked Leela Zero and it would have played at 'a' or 'b'. 'a' follows the AI fashion of early 3-3, but 'b' is just the biggest side, follows human theory and aims to press at 'c' since :wc:

makes white low at the top. Because :bc:

is low and white always has the shoulder hit at 'd' it's hard for black to make a moyo, which is one reason :b1:

looks odd.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . W . . O . . X . . | $$ | . . . , c . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . b . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . 1 . . . , . . . d . , X . . | $$ | . . a . . . . . . . . . . . B . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

But

is by no means a losing move. Maybe it's 1% down in Leela Zero's estimation. No big deal. Myungwan Kim 9p gives a lecture frequently on "puppy dog" and "bulldozer." The puppy dog follows master around, so the puppy dog player follows their opponent around thus making the opponent the master. It's a common bad habit. Bulldozer is harder to explain, but it's more about having a fixed idea that you are unwilling to let go of. Here, I think your fixed idea may be "I'm going to build influence no matter what happens." And so the pushes from behind, etc. that have already been mentioned. Leela Zero fortunately has no fixed ideas because it has no ideas.

Leela zero is flexible. After :w2:

, 'a' is still one of the biggest points (tenuki is often an option) and locally 'b' and 'c' are up there as well as Joaz's move at 'd' (Which I like

) and even your attachment at 'e', which surprises me a bit, but there it is.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . O . . O . . X . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . a . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . b c . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . 1 . e . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . 2 . . . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . . . . d . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

'c' is interesting because it is where white normally would have played instead of :w2:

. Let's look at Leela Zero's continuation (I substituted :w3:

because I think most players would play there. LZ does something else, but that's another topic.

). This is flexible. Just leave :bc:

for white to worry about later. It's not a fixed idea.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . O . . O . . X . . | $$ | . . 7 , . 9 . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . 5 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 6 8 . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 0 . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . B . . . , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . . . 3 . 1 . . . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

So when you played :bc:

, asking "can I build a big thing here, please?" and white denies this by playing :w1:

, maybe more flexible thinking is in order. Time for another plan. This is more miai way of thinking...white didn't play at :b2:

, so black can and try for the left side.

So back to the attach. If that's not bad (and to Leela Zero it's not much to worry about), what is?

Well, this pops out. It's -17% after a fair number of visits.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . O . . O . . X . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . 1 . X . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . X . X O , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . . . a O O . . . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

The following may look scary, but it's the only move I would consider and Leela Zero spends practically all of its energy on it, too. The concern is probably how to handle white's push and cut at :w2:

and

, but understand that white has a cutting point at 'a' and a lone corner stone :wc:

. Leela Zero would sooner defend those than play this line which is about 5% down for white over the better moves.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B only move $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . O . . O . . X . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . 4 3 X . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . W . X 2 X O , . . . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . . . 1 O O a . . . . . X . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

But instead of telling you the continuation, I suggest you look at the position a bit. Is black okay with this? It's important to play :b1:

with confidence even if you don't understand the fight. Sometimes go is like that.

Quote:

I pondered hard on direction. I thought I should pincer UP because I judged I was stronger in the upper right corner vs lower right. Are you saying that assessment was incorrect??

So here is the postion, and the question is whether 'a' would have been better direction. Well, to some extent, you can just count stones. After, :w1:

there are 3 black stones on the top and 12 at the bottom. While there are cutting points at 'b' and 'c', I think it's fair to say that black is stronger at the bottom.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W Moves 32 to 33 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . O . . O . . X . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . a . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . a . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . b X c . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . X . X X X X O X X . . . . . | $$ | . . b O . X . X O O O O O . . , X . . | $$ | . . . . . O O O . . . O . . X . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Isn't this more pressure on white? BTW, Leela Zero also spends time fantasizing about tenuki at 'a' and 'b' which is a reminder that one doesn't have to reflexively respond to the wedge of :w1:

anyway.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W How's it going for white? $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . O . . O . . X . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . a . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . 1 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . b X c . . . 3 . . | $$ | . . . . . X . X X X X O X X . . . . . | $$ | . . b O . X . X O O O O O . . , X . . | $$ | . . . . . O O O . . . O . . X . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Page 1 of 1	All times are UTC - 8 hours [ DST ]
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group http://www.phpbb.com/