5 specific questions

Ian Butler · #1

I just played a game and I have 3 specific questions about it.
I played a 3 kyu (misread it, thought it was an 8 kyu so a bit of a mismatch) and should've lost horribly, hadn't he resigned from a winning position (no idea why, maybe he had to go or something...)

Not my best game, but I don't know if I played major mistakes or just rather not as well as a 3 kyu. So if you see any major mistakes, SDK unworthy, be sure to let me know!

My 5 questions:
1) Move 15: is it bad?
2) Move 29: is it alive?
3) Move 32: how would you try to tip the game in black's favor? White is getting a lead in potential. For example: where'd you play on the left side?
4) Move 54: are my variations somewhat correct and thus could've killed (at least part of) white's invasion?
5) Move 81 and onwards: probably a tough question: but where did it go wrong? OR, is it already too late at move 81? My L&D let me down and I saw it was a 3 eye-space instead of 4 a bit too late, but maybe there were other ways out?

There are already some comments from myself in the file. Other pointers are welcome, too, of course!

topazg · #2

1) No, looks fine to me, particularly with Q9 far and high.

2) Yes, completely alive

3) C4 appeals. C6 / B5 probably fine. Even your C3 gote invasion might be ok, but D3 instead of B4 is bigger than game line.

4) Move 51 feels clumsy to me. I'd probably clamp with N16. Failing that, the hane at O15 is probably necessary, but I quite like the clamp. For the later variations your reading feels somewhat optimistic in both lines. I agree that 55 was slack though, I would have played J17.

5) My biggest comment is probably 85, and it's hand in hand with why I think some of your variations on 4) were optimistic. You keep trying to play on both sides of things - why 85 when you're in the middle of looking after the group in the centre. Forcing White to play K9 is not good for you. 91 at L11 is probably hard for White to kill, but as you say the damage is kind of done. As a rule in fighting situations you pick one side and maximise your result there, trying to juggle both is normally bad

BlindGroup · #3

A few answers from looking at the game with Lizzie:

Ian Butler wrote:

1) Move 15: is it bad?

Lizzie thinks your move is better than the joseki move by 3%. However, Lizzie prefers the following move and thinks it is about 2% better than yours:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$ $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . B . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . O X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

Ian Butler wrote:

2) Move 29: is it alive?

Yes, in fact, Lizzie thinks your first major mistake was responding to S8. For black 29, Lizzie thinks attaching to the bottom of the 4-4 stone at D4 is 18% better than defending at T6. And before T4, Lizzie thinks black had a 52% chance of winning.

Ian Butler wrote:

3) Move 32: how would you try to tip the game in black's favor? White is getting a lead in potential. For example: where'd you play on the left side?

This is what prompted me to look at your game with Lizzie in the first place. In my experience, if you find yourself in a situation where you see your opponent has an advantage and you aren't sure what to do -- you've probably already made your mistake. My instinct (and Lizzie agrees) is that you should have played A in this position rather than blocking with B (playing at the intersection of two moyos?). Lizzie's second choice is the attachment at C. So, the left side is still big.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$ $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . X . . b . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . X . W . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . a . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . X | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . O X . . | $$ | . . c O . . . . . , . . . . . O X . . | $$ | . . . . . . O . . X . . X . . O X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

Ian Butler wrote:

4) Move 54: are my variations somewhat correct and thus could've killed (at least part of) white's invasion?

Can't answer this one definitively, but killing looks to be overly ambitious. I never found a sequence where white did not manage to live or escape.

Also, just a heads up, but you had a chance to play the corner sequence from the 3-3 invasion of the large knight enclosure that jlt suggested (viewtopic.php?p=238986#p238986) at 35:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . 6 . . . . . . $$ | . 4 . . . . . . . $$ | . 3 O O 1 . . . . $$ | . 5 X X O 2 O . . $$ | . . . 7 X O . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ +------------------[/go]

This is a very good sequence to learn because usually white needs to play another local move to limit the impact of the aji of :b1:

. So, you get the invasion and get to retain sente.

bernds · #4

: If it's bad, it's not bad enough to worry about.
:b29:

: The interesting question isn't if it's alive now, it clearly is. The interesting question is: did you need this move?
At move 32, I'll start wishing I'd not played the F17/O17 keimas which look a little passive. Starting with a sanrensei, and ending up with the formation at the top, does not appeal to me. But :b33:

doesn't seem outlandish. You could also think about C4 or C9.
Variations at :b55:

- not much point going into fighting variations, in the sense that it's all too specific to learn general principles.
:b85:

: Really bad, adding another stone to an unimportant one and inviting White to fix a weakness that was important for the safety of your other group.

jlt · #5

Possible sequence at move :b33:

?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B $$ | . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . O . . . . $$ | . . . , . . . . $$ | . . 7 . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . $$ | . . 3 5 . . . . $$ | . . 1 O 6 . . . $$ | . 4 2 . . . O . $$ | . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . . . . . $$ +----------------[/go]

Bill Spight · #6

Some comments. Pretty general agreement.

Ian Butler · #7

@topazg: Thanks for those answers. Yes, playing on both sides is something I know is bad and want to avoid, but sometimes am very guilty of...

@BlindGroup: Interesting answers. I haven't seen that standard invasion of the large keima yet, so thanks for bringing it to my attention.

@bernds: That seems the general consensus here. I thought 85 wasn't the best move, but it turns out it's quite a blunder.

@jlt: Haven't seen that variation yet (or maybe in someone else's game once). Is black alive? My guess is that he is IF he isn't completely surrounded. Image white stones at F6 & F8 or something and then the monkey kills it, no?

Bill Spight wrote:

Some comments. Pretty general agreement.

Concerning your comments:
:b7:

interesting. I've always seen this as a decent answer in the sanrensei. Playing away I hadn't considered.
:b15:

glad I made the pro move, especially thinking (and daring) I was leaving joseki behind and followed my own reasoning.

4th line is better for reducing. Though I played 3rd line to make sure I could make a safe group. I guess both can make sense.
:b19:

I'll add it to my repertoire. Jumping up when you can make a base always looks silly to me, but I'll have to change that way of thinking.

Thank you, once again, Bill, for your very helpful insights. Even if you have given me the same advice a lot of time, don't think it's not helpful. Sometimes you need to hear/do a thing 100 times before it finally seeps through.

jlt · #8

Ian Butler wrote:

@jlt: Haven't seen that variation yet (or maybe in someone else's game once). Is black alive? My guess is that he is IF he isn't completely surrounded. Image white stones at F6 & F8 or something and then the monkey kills it, no?

This variation is certainly dangerous if Black is completely surrounded, but in your game Black wasn't. The idea of this invasion is not to live immediately, but to establish a base, i.e. have at least one potential eye on the edge, without being completely locked in (while in your 3-3 invasion, you lived small in gote, were completely surrounded and helped White build his territory).

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