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 Post subject: So, I'm not 1D on Tygem ;-)
Post #1 Posted: Fri Dec 07, 2018 8:59 pm 
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I created an account on Tygem and for some reason I thought the ranks were similar to those on Fox. It seems that I should have checked. I'm definitely not 1D on Tygem. I've lost a series of painful games...

This is the closest one. I feel like I was actually up early on. I was very happy with my early game. But then I lost my territory on the bottom and things just went downhill from there. I was very clearly outmatched from the middle of the game to the end.

I was able to identify some of my mistakes and I'll likely go over it with Lizzie, but I'm finding it very hard to follow her advice in games. So, I was wondering if I could get a human take on it!



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 Post subject: Re: So, I'm not 1D on Tygem ;-)
Post #2 Posted: Sat Dec 08, 2018 1:18 am 
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This looks like a fun ko.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$ Position at move 67
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X O . O . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X X O X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . X . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . O X O O . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . O X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | O X X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O X . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . X O X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O X . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | W O X O O O . . . . . . . X . . X . . |
$$ | X O X X . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


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 Post subject: Re: So, I'm not 1D on Tygem ;-)
Post #3 Posted: Sat Dec 08, 2018 4:02 am 
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Hi Blindgroup,

A few comments, for what they are worth :) :
- after 69 I like white's position better because of the floating black group in the center
- :w70: I disagree with your comment. Because of the black stone at O3 w's potential at the bottom is much smaller than at the top
- w96, very solid and I like it because it prepares the attack on the center group. Playing more actively at Q14 seems interesting too (w's O14 group will get stronger in the process and if b cuts later at L12 he will only create a second weak group in the center for himself)
- w104, w's groups seem to be alive and fine, so controlling the marked stone doesn't look very important here. Building strength to come back and harass b's center group is probably a better way of appraoching the position
- w128, after building strength in the center by harassing black (stones at J6-K8-L9/10) I would be really interested in invading at M3 instead of making territory (but enclosing territory with 130 at O4 is probably good enough anyway)
- w152, w has become very strong by capturing at K5 so playing at G9 looks very tempting

Overall I really liked how you played the long game by building strength in the center, putting pressure on b's group. I think it gave you a good position but that you failed in converting it into solid points at the crucial moment. It also seems to me that there were some moments when you were a bit too concerned with "problems" in your position ("controlling L14", keeping playing at L3) and not enough with black's problems. I hope this helps!

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 Post subject: Re: So, I'm not 1D on Tygem ;-)
Post #4 Posted: Sat Dec 08, 2018 7:42 am 
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Shenoute wrote:
Hi Blindgroup, A few comments, for what they are worth :) :


Very helpful. Thank you! A couple of follow-up questions:

Shenoute wrote:
- :w70: I disagree with your comment. Because of the black stone at O3 w's potential at the bottom is much smaller than at the top


I'm guessing you are referring to :w72:. This is what I was thinking in the review, and I'm wondering where I went wrong:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X O . O . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X X O X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X . . . a . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . X . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . O X O O . . b . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . O X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | O X X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O X O . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . X O X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O X . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . O X O O O . . . . . . . X . . X . . |
$$ | X O X X . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


In this position, it seems that threatening the weak black group is the right direction of play. To me, the two most obvious candidates seem to be A and B. I agree that the top has more potential than the bottom, but since neither A nor B individually solidify my hold on those areas, that seemed like a longer-term consideration. The more immediate issue seemed to be to keep the black group weak as possible.

If I play A, black has the indicated follow-up moves. Circles are fairly solid moves while squares are move that white could cut. Given the relative weakness of black's stones, black probably can't make the square moves yet.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X O . O . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X X O X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X . . . O . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . X . S . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . X . . . C . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . O X O O . . . C . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . O X X O . C C . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | O X X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O X O . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . X O X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O X . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . O X O O O . . . . . . . X . . X . . |
$$ | X O X X . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


If I had played B, the white's scope seems like it would be much more limited. Plus any of the three circle moves give me a chance to make a sente follow up move that builds my control over either the top or the bottom.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X O . O . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X X O X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . O S . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X . . . C S . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . X . C . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . X . . C S . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . O X O O . . O S . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . O X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | O X X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O X O . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . X O X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O X . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . O X O O O . . . . . . . X . . X . . |
$$ | X O X X . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


I'm guessing that I'm missing something here. Could you point out what I'm missing?

Shenoute wrote:
- w104, w's groups seem to be alive and fine, so controlling the marked stone doesn't look very important here. Building strength to come back and harass b's center group is probably a better way of appraoching the position


Here my concern was the marked stones rather than the group at the top right:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . X O . O . O . |
$$ | . X . X Q Q . . . X . X O O . X O . . |
$$ | . . . X Q . Q . . , X O . . . X X . . |
$$ | . X X O X Q . . Q X X O . O . . . . . |
$$ | . O O O X . . . . X @ Y . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . . . X . Q . . X @ . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . O O X . . . @ @ @ . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . X . . . . . . . . X . . |
$$ | . . O X . X . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . O X O O . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . O X X O . . X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | O X X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O X O . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . X O X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O X . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . O X O O O . . . . . . . X . . X . . |
$$ | X O X X . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


This is one of those situations where my reading and tsumego skills are insufficient to read this out completely. So, my pressing moves at Q12 and Q13 were an attempt to be cautious. What I was worried about was that the triangle stones are sufficiently weak that black could attack the triangle stones by threatening to cut off the square ones. My fear was that I'd have to give up both sente and let black separate the two groups to ensure that the triangle stones were alive. Then black could play N13, which would be uncomfortable without the stones at Q13 and Q12.

Like I said, I don't know that this necessarily works, but (a.) black would certainly have the chance to strengthen his top group at my expense and (b.) it could work. I was worried about something along these lines if A and B were not in place:



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 Post subject: Re: So, I'm not 1D on Tygem ;-)
Post #5 Posted: Sat Dec 08, 2018 9:51 am 
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Joaz Banbeck wrote:
This looks like a fun ko.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$ Position at move 67
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X O . O . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . X X O X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . X . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . O X O O . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . O X X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | O X X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X O X . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . X O X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X O O X . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . O X O O O . . . . . . . X . . X . . |
$$ | X O X X . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . W . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Game over, man!

Cheers,
Vesa


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 Post subject: Re: So, I'm not 1D on Tygem ;-)
Post #6 Posted: Sat Dec 08, 2018 10:32 am 
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BlindGroup wrote:
I'm guessing you are referring to :w72:

Yes, 72, sorry!
I don't really have time right now for a thorough explanation about how I see this position. I'd just like to address this:
Quote:
I agree that the top has more potential than the bottom, but since neither A nor B individually solidify my hold on those areas, that seemed like a longer-term consideration. The more immediate issue seemed to be to keep the black group weak as possible.

For that's where the crux of the matter lies. I disagree with this quote for several (related) reasons (sorry :)):
1) A or B do solidify your hold on these areas! That's the whole point of playing these stones! Even if they are/seem to be far away they do help
2) To illustrate, when black plays 75, do you think 72 is useless? same at 92, could you have sealed black in without 72? My point (maybe mistaken of course!) is that stones like 72 do help you build the top. Seeing this, either black comes in (as he did with 75) and you can then make him suffer (as you did really well), build strength and repeat the process; or he plays 75 elsewhere (R14 or O16 for instance) and leaves you make the top even bigger.
3) You mention keeping black as weak as possible but I would argue that this misses the point entirely. When your opponent has a weak group, the goal is not to keep it as weak as possible for as long as possible (of course, that doesn't you shouldn't be looking for that). The main goal is to benefit as much as possible from this weakness. If the only way to do that is making his group stronger after a couple of moves, then so be it!
A move at H9 may keep black weaker, but the question is what do you gain from that? What will the H9 stone do when your attack runs out of steam (because it will at some point)?

Also, about
Quote:
To me, the two most obvious candidates seem to be A and B
I'm not saying it would be interesting here but there is a third (often overlooked) possibility: K11.

About the sequences in your last sgf file. When black plays H14, forget about living at the top. Play H12, connect your stones on the outside and attack black center group. I don't think black has any way to disconnect your triangle and square stones.

Sorry, all this is a bit rushed and I hope someone more knowledgeable will be able to comment. Sorry also if my tone is a bit too passionate! Nothing personal of course :)

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 Post subject: Re: So, I'm not 1D on Tygem ;-)
Post #7 Posted: Sat Dec 08, 2018 11:08 am 
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Shenoute wrote:
I disagree with this quote for several (related) reasons (sorry :)):


I feel the same way you do when explaining to someone that they are wrong. But it's a bit ironic in this context, no? This entire discussion is only useful to me if (a.) you disagree with me and (b.) I'm wrong ;-)

This was useful. I'm still not sure that I understand, but I haven't had a chance to work through this yet.

And I hadn't thought about K11!

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 Post subject: Re: So, I'm not 1D on Tygem ;-)
Post #8 Posted: Sat Dec 08, 2018 11:57 am 
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Plot twist: maybe we are both wrong :)

The position here and the discussion reminded me of Chapter 2 of Attack and Defense. Maybe the connection is not obvious but you may find the following problems helpful (white to play in both, no hints in the second except that w has to attack b's lower right group):





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 Post subject: Re: So, I'm not 1D on Tygem ;-)
Post #9 Posted: Mon Dec 10, 2018 1:02 pm 
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The position at :w72: is interesting. You seem to be trying to decide between two reasonable directions of attack. Let me suggest two other alternatives.

How about the center block at K11? This interferes with B development by stopping him from running directly into the center. The idea is to make him choose one side or the other, then to profit from the attack in that direction. For example, if B runs upward, you might get a sequence like {K11, J12, J14, K15 or K16} where you make territory while attacking. If B runs downward, the sequence might be something like {K11, J10, L9, J8, K7} where again you make profit while attacking.

In cases like this where it is not obvious which direction to attack, tenuki is another good option. The idea is to play elsewhere, see how things develop, then come back to the attack when the most useful direction becomes clear. With his weak group still unsettled, B will be somewhat constrained in his play, in all directions, elsewhere on the board. If B decides to add a defensive move (say K11) before you come back to attack, your strong groups would not be affected, and you would not be upset at getting yet another large move elsewhere.

At this stage in the game, there are still many large moves to choose from. O17, R14, and M3 could all lead to developments which threaten the B center group. R17 is also very large, but perhaps less likely to affect the center. But it looks like you are leading in both territory and thickness, so this move would be fine too. In short, there is really no need to attack strongly or to choose the direction of attack right away.

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 Post subject: Re: So, I'm not 1D on Tygem ;-)
Post #10 Posted: Mon Dec 10, 2018 4:10 pm 
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mitsun wrote:
How about the center block at K11?


I hadn't considered that at the time, but it is a very nice idea. FWIW, Lizzie seems indifferent between the move I made and O17. She doesn't seem to consider K11, but evaluates it as being very close to the same winrate. So, I think your assessment of all of these options as being viable is right. I'll also have to think about tenuki. I see the logic of waiting to see which move is best.

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 Post subject: Re: So, I'm not 1D on Tygem ;-)
Post #11 Posted: Mon Dec 10, 2018 4:12 pm 
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Shenoute wrote:
Plot twist: maybe we are both wrong :)


Here are my guesses:

First one:
A seems much stronger to me because it builds up a bottom wall to the white center position.


Second one:
O9 seems like the way to go here.

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 Post subject: Re: So, I'm not 1D on Tygem ;-)
Post #12 Posted: Tue Dec 11, 2018 4:21 am 
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Yes, both right*. I thought it might be interesting to look at these because I see a link with the position in your game and what we discussed afterwards.
In both problems you may be able to torture black (that is, keep him weak) longer by playing B in the first position and maybe something like M6 in the second problem. But the result would be less interesting.
For instance in problem 2, attacking with O9 means black connects very easily to his J5 stones. His group doesn’t remain weak for very long but white benefits from it by building the largest moyo possible above.
On the other hand, if white attacks from the M6 direction, the black group will probably struggle for longer but once it lives (and it will), white will have no potential anymore and the attacking stones he played at M6-M8-etc can’t really be used for anything because black H5-J5 limit their potential.

To me this situation seemed pretty close to the one in your game at move 72 (with M6 in the problem being H9 and H5-J5 being O3), but I don’t know if this helps :-)

* According to the book at least, I don't know what Leela and the likes would make of these.

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