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 Post subject: Leela pounds me into submission!
Post #1 Posted: Wed Dec 12, 2018 10:52 am 
Lives in gote

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Well, Leela .11 just beat me into resignation, despite 8 handicap stones. She truly is a monster.

It's an interesting game to learn from, but the problem for me is knowing where exactly I went wrong. Because analysing the game with her afterwards shows me I often made her top choice, too! But she just slowly catches up, until she kills a group. Funnily enough, even then I'm still ahead, and for a few moves I actually increase my lead! But then, because a group died and I went into overdrive, she kills another few stones and I'm lost.

So the game is below. To be positive, too, I mark the moves I made that were Leela's top choice and of which I'm proud!
Finding mistakes is harder. Though I suspect my biggest mistakes were just moves that were slow and/or not sente.

Hopefully some stronger players can confirm that, or give me the real reason?

Leela's choice, and mine, too!
26!
34 and 36, taking points.
38, calm.
40, 42, 44
She even likes 48. but not my follow up moves.
72! Leela likes my timing. But I cease to follow up (bad. though even in her variations, the stones die and I'm not sure what it contributes...)
106 she likes my timing again.
114 likewise.
116.
132, Leela likes! Her favorite move. I'm happy I came up with it myself. This small sequence increases my lead a little bit again. But after a few moves I err.

Possible blunders?
18? Just make points on the side instead?
24, white is strong anyway, so disconnect doesn't do that much.
30. Leela just ignores. Though after she ignores, she says I should follow up with H11
lower right corner, though Leela says it's not that bad, it wasn't an optimal result neither. (at move 66 for example, hane instead of cutting)
94 bad!!!! snapback I didn't see. But the crawling/clamping on the 2nd line in general was pretty dramatic. Is there something you can do against it? It's just terrible.
124 probably costs me my group.


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 Post subject: Re: Leela pounds me into submission!
Post #2 Posted: Wed Dec 12, 2018 11:21 am 
Gosei

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Pretty much all of my suggestions in the opening are of the "just take points" variety.

:b18:: Don't try to make points in the middle, I would play C14 or F17, solidifying the last corner that had any issues.

:b24:: Neither group that this "threatens to cut" is in great danger, and there is too much space for this to be that dangerous anyway, not to mention that White is a much stronger player than you. I'd just play C11 or C10 and make points on the side, plus it would really make White have to respond to B17 later.

:b28:: Same.

:b32:: I would finish off a corner in the bottom, like E3 or P3. When you played at L14 earlier you made yourself emotionally invested in this area.

:b48: et al: You are just forcing White to connect. I'd finish off the lower right corner.

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 Post subject: Re: Leela pounds me into submission!
Post #3 Posted: Wed Dec 12, 2018 12:05 pm 
Gosei

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Your description of how Leela played is perfectly how White should play in a handicap game, just gradually catching up. Apparently no particular overplays nor tricks.

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 Post subject: Re: Leela pounds me into submission!
Post #4 Posted: Thu Dec 13, 2018 6:08 am 
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Nevertheless, I think that Leela 0.11 doesn't play very well at H8. I tried to play with the same handicap and beat her easily by playing a very boring game: just build territory on the edge, not much fighting. I only used 5000 simulations, I don't know if she plays very differently with more simulations.

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 Post subject: Re: Leela pounds me into submission!
Post #5 Posted: Thu Dec 13, 2018 8:17 am 
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jlt wrote:
Nevertheless, I think that Leela 0.11 doesn't play very well at H8. I tried to play with the same handicap and beat her easily by playing a very boring game: just build territory on the edge, not much fighting. I only used 5000 simulations, I don't know if she plays very differently with more simulations.


That is true. I have also won with H8 before (I think once even on H7), but I played very boring games then.
After that I read that anything above H5 is meant to be used in attacking ways, because you don't learn enough when you play passively, even though you might win.
Even though I didn't attack much during my game above, I also refused to play too defensively because - yes, I could win. But it wouldn't make for a good teaching game. Not sure it did now, though :)

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Post #6 Posted: Sun Dec 16, 2018 2:34 pm 
Honinbo

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A few comments. :)


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At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins

My two main guides in life:
My mother and my wife. :)

Everything with love. Stay safe.

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 Post subject: Re: Leela pounds me into submission!
Post #7 Posted: Mon Dec 17, 2018 8:24 pm 
Oza
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I'd like to propose that this is a good example of Kajiwara's, "Move 2 was the losing move" (or whatever he actually said).

I cannot see any good connection between :w1: and :b2:. Black has played a thoroughly standard play that seems to have no relation to the rest of the board. This is the wrong attitude IMHO. Black's whole-board advantage will never be greater than on move 2. Ignoring the board means letting White off the hook. Hasn't Black already taken a misstep?
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Off on the Wrong Foot
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
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$$ | . . . X . . . . . 1 . . . . . X . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

If Black wants to protect the bottom right corner isn't :b2: below (alternatively "a") better?
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Makes more sense for defense?
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
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$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . 1 . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . a . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

If Black wants to connect along the side, doesn't :b2: below make more sense?
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Makes more sense for balance?
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . 1 . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

But personally, I think I would just have to try :b2: below for the fun of it! Not too close since it is 8 stones and White IS strong. But still active and it makes such a neat shape! The "a" points are all waving their little hands and shouting, "Me next, me next!" in my mind. :)
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Simply more fun? :-)
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . a . . . . . a . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . 1 . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . a . . . . . 2 . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

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"Short-lived are both the praiser and the praised, and rememberer and the remembered..."
- Marcus Aurelius; Meditations, VIII 21

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 Post subject: Re: Leela pounds me into submission!
Post #8 Posted: Mon Dec 17, 2018 10:41 pm 
Lives in gote

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ez4u wrote:
But personally, I think I would just have to try :b2: below for the fun of it! Not too close since it is 8 stones and White IS strong. But still active and it makes such a neat shape! The "a" points are all waving their little hands and shouting, "Me next, me next!" in my mind. :)
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Simply more fun? :-)
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . a . . . . . a . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . 1 . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . a . . . . . 2 . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


After white invades with move 3 above, move 2 looks very inefficient.
That's why move 2 is my least favorite, from all the options you mentioned, maybe because I am not sure what to do with it.

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 Post subject: Re: Leela pounds me into submission!
Post #9 Posted: Tue Dec 18, 2018 1:22 am 
Oza
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sorin wrote:
ez4u wrote:
But personally, I think I would just have to try :b2: below for the fun of it! Not too close since it is 8 stones and White IS strong. But still active and it makes such a neat shape! The "a" points are all waving their little hands and shouting, "Me next, me next!" in my mind. :)
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Simply more fun? :-)
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . 4 . . . . . a . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . 1 . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . a . . . . . 2 . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


After white invades with move 3 above, move 2 looks very inefficient.
That's why move 2 is my least favorite, from all the options you mentioned, maybe because I am not sure what to do with it.

I would just continue with :b4: above of course! The other "a"'s are still waiving their little hands.
Here is LZ trying to figure out what to do next. ;-)
Attachment:
Lizzie pondering what to do next.jpg
Lizzie pondering what to do next.jpg [ 217.34 KiB | Viewed 2030 times ]

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 Post subject: Re: Leela pounds me into submission!
Post #10 Posted: Tue Dec 18, 2018 2:51 am 
Judan

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This looks fun and black can make good use of his handi stones in the fighting:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Funzies
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . 4 3 . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . 1 2 . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


If white ever hanes black will cut, so maybe this happens and black's at least building a bigger thing when the inevitable 3-3 comes.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc nobi train
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . 5 6 . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . 3 4 . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . 1 2 . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


But being more sensible, defending a corner looks fine, make white show how the tengen is valuable.

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 Post subject: Re: Leela pounds me into submission!
Post #11 Posted: Tue Dec 18, 2018 4:32 am 
Honinbo

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Isn't this the AlphaGo style?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc The armpit play
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . 1 . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Well, it's not exactly a shoulder blow, is it? ;) (The name is not original with me, BTW.)

A bit more seriously:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Counterhane
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . 1 2 . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . 4 . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Isn't the counterhane the local play here? (To my regret, I did not learn to prioritize the counterhane until I had played go for a long time.)

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Nobi
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . 1 2 . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . 4 . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . X . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


And if White plays nobi, isn't this nobi indicated, as well?

Truth to say, though, don't these center contact fights benefit White more than Black?

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 Post subject: Re: Leela pounds me into submission!
Post #12 Posted: Tue Dec 18, 2018 5:29 am 
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Thanks all for the interesting and creative answers!

Bill, trying to learn from your mistakes: I want to learn about the counterhane, since I haven't studied it myself yet! (Only recently I made some progress with double-hane)
Any tips where I might learn some of its uses and situations? Thanks!

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 Post subject: Re: Leela pounds me into submission!
Post #13 Posted: Tue Dec 18, 2018 8:47 am 
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Ian Butler wrote:
Bill, trying to learn from your mistakes: I want to learn about the counterhane, since I haven't studied it myself yet! (Only recently I made some progress with double-hane)
Any tips where I might learn some of its uses and situations? Thanks!


It shows up in some joseki. Which is where I first saw it, but assumed that it was special for those situations. I did not generalize it. You can also find it in pro and AI games. :)

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 Post subject: Re: Leela pounds me into submission!
Post #14 Posted: Tue Dec 18, 2018 9:20 am 
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W Joseki with a counter-hane
$$ . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . X . . |
$$ . . . . . . . |
$$ . . 6 X . . . |
$$ . O 4 1 2 8 . |
$$ . . 7 5 3 . . |
$$ . . . . . . . |
$$ --------------+[/go]


The counter-hane tesuji (see Davis' book, towards the end):
Attachment:
davis.JPG
davis.JPG [ 25.43 KiB | Viewed 1980 times ]


This post by jlt was liked by: Joaz Banbeck
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