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 Post subject: Moyo game! Close one, too.
Post #1 Posted: Wed Dec 19, 2018 10:03 am 
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This is a moyo game I played earlier. The result was rather surprising for me, because I fully expected to lose against this 6 kyu on OGS. (5.5 and once ranked 1.8 kyu!)

Story of the game as I see it (with Leela's help) is the following:
1. black wins the opening after winning the ko.
2. black builds a nice moyo, but instead of capitalising on it, he overplays (and underplays - gote small moves) in white's area and makes the game more even again.
3. black plays better endgame and wins the game.

During the game, I was more and more sure I was going to win, so it was a bit odd that Leela figured me as behind in the late middle-game, early-end game (move 150 or so)
I was sure I was ahead. But I tried to pay a lot of attention on sente in my endgame and I think it worked well.

The sgf is already with comments from my own after analysing with Leela, hoping for additional insights on bad plays or good plays!
The additional question (less important because it's purely for my ego) is how you would rate this game. Because usually online I don't think much, while I managed to stay focused on the game more or less during this game, read some things out etc. I'm curious how you'd judge my strength from this game record.
Time settings were 10 mins + 5x30 Byo-Yomi. Never used an excessive amount of time, but rarily played 1-2-3 second moves, neither.

Thank you!
EDIT: I am black, MeesterJonas, my school account.
Also I realise the variation of move 57, white 58 would be at K6, not self atari.



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Post #2 Posted: Wed Dec 19, 2018 11:39 am 
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You played some fine moves for a 6K. But unfortunately these moves were interspersed with other moves which failed to back them up. You got strong positions, but did not exploit most of them.

You seem to know what moves need to be played. Just follow through on your knowledge and you will be shodan.



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Post #3 Posted: Wed Dec 19, 2018 11:54 am 
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@Joaz I thank you kindly for your review of my game, you make some insightful posts and give me a good direction to work towards (use strength more). So thank you very much.

Only your comments at the :b65: and :b69: moves are not appreciated. From all my reviews, it should be fairly obvious I'm not in the habit of lying to myself or others when it comes to mistakes. I've admitted many silly mistakes over the last year and I'll continue to do so.
I had read out the situation as it happened and it was my judgement at the time of playing that stones on the fifth line, increasing my moyo, were more valuable than a strong (but small) group on the (left) upper side and a white group potentially ruining my moyo by running all the way through it. And as the small variation shows, white can easily make shape and leave, thus destroying any points there that could've been blacks.
Of course, as the game shows, the extra stones were not worth the sacrifice. There was my mistake.
You don't have to believe me, but nevertheless it's true. Even if this makes my mistake even worse. Because a reading error happens easily. A judgement mistake of that kind makes me a way worse player. But that's who I am ;)

Still, don't think I'm not thankful for your comments. I really value them and hope to learn from them!

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Post #4 Posted: Wed Dec 19, 2018 12:59 pm 
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JB can correct me if I'm wrong, but I had the opposite interpretation of her comments than you did. I took her "never admit this" as sarcasm and her recommendation that you pretend to have intended the outcome as an indictment of players who do just this in their reviews. If anything, I think she was crediting your honesty by making fun of how people "normally" handle this. That said, I could be wrong. Just putting this out there.

That said, I agree with JB that you had some very good moves in this game. I think you were clearly stronger than your opponent. The fact that he was once ranked in the 1-2k range is probably a reflection of the fact that OGS's ranking system adjusts too easily. OGS is great because you can easily get even games against stronger opponents, but I've started to wondering if the OGS rank is a good gauge of individual progress. Over the last 4 months, I've jumped about 2-3 stones in strength on IGS, Fox, and against the players at my local club. However, my OGS rank is still stuck at 6k. It fluctuates a bit, but that's the average.

If you haven't, you might try creating an IGS or Fox account and see where you settle out.


This post by BlindGroup was liked by: Joaz Banbeck
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 Post subject: Re: Moyo game! Close one, too.
Post #5 Posted: Thu Dec 20, 2018 11:42 am 
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I hope you're right about the interpretation. Although the comment at move :b69: still feels demeaning to me:

Quote:
JB: You can still say that you planned this all along. Only you and I know otherwise, and I'm not telling.


Anyway, it doesn't matter much.

Concerning rank on OGS, you may be right. But I don't play online enough to know my real online ranking anyway. And if I keep playing strong players, I'll get better and enjoy myself, so what, then, does it matter at what rank these games are played. But you're correct that it might be nicer to have a more stable server to measure my potential increase in strength more.
I've downloaded Fox but so far been unable to play any game because I can't read Chinese and got some problems with the English version. Where I have to keep "changing the rules" or something before I start a game or challenge someone and I don't quite know what I'm supposed to do.
Likewise, I've downloaded IGS (long ago, though) and couldn't get a single game neither.

So thus far I've played KGS and OGS mostly.

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Post #6 Posted: Thu Dec 20, 2018 6:34 pm 
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Ian Butler wrote:
Concerning rank on OGS, you may be right. But I don't play online enough to know my real online ranking anyway. And if I keep playing strong players, I'll get better and enjoy myself, so what, then, does it matter at what rank these games are played. But you're correct that it might be nicer to have a more stable server to measure my potential increase in strength more.


Totally reasonable and it's not like your rank on OGS has much effect on the strength of your opponents or whether you play even or handicap games ;-) The only reason that I mention this is that you seem much stronger than 9k to me. I was honestly just curious to know how much you'd improved!


Ian Butler wrote:
I've downloaded Fox but so far been unable to play any game because I can't read Chinese and got some problems with the English version. Where I have to keep "changing the rules" or something before I start a game or challenge someone and I don't quite know what I'm supposed to do.

Likewise, I've downloaded IGS (long ago, though) and couldn't get a single game neither.


Fox is different than the other servers you've tried. The matching is a two step process: First, you decide if you might like to play someone and then, the two of you haggle over the time settings. That said, there are so many players that the optimal strategy is to suggest your preferred time settings and if your opponent either declines or offers time controls you don't like in reply, just quit the room and look for a new match. In my experience, most people will accept 15 or 20 minutes main time with 3 x 0:30 byomi. The great thing about Fox is the players fight like mad and it's not until the low SDK level that players seem to know josekis. So, it's an interesting style to play against. Really tests whether you know why the joseki moves are joseki!

I have the English version and during the loading process the buttons have English labels, but they switch to Chinese after the list of players loads. That said, all you really need to know is that the big green button starts the automatch process. After that, everything is clearly labeled.

Not sure what happened on IGS. I rarely have trouble getting a game through the automatch system. I particularly like playing on IGS because the standard time settings are fairly slow -- Canadian 25 stones in 10 minutes. So, you can spend a lot more time thinking about the game.
So thus far I've played KGS and OGS mostly.

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Post #7 Posted: Thu Dec 20, 2018 11:19 pm 
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BlindGroup wrote:
JB can correct me if I'm wrong, but I had the opposite interpretation of her comments than you did. I took her "never admit this" as sarcasm and her recommendation that you pretend to have intended the outcome as an indictment of players who do just this in their reviews. If anything, I think she was crediting your honesty by making fun of how people "normally" handle this...


That is correct - except'her': I'm male.

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Post #8 Posted: Fri Dec 21, 2018 9:56 am 
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Joaz Banbeck wrote:
BlindGroup wrote:
JB can correct me if I'm wrong, but I had the opposite interpretation of her comments than you did. I took her "never admit this" as sarcasm and her recommendation that you pretend to have intended the outcome as an indictment of players who do just this in their reviews. If anything, I think she was crediting your honesty by making fun of how people "normally" handle this...


That is correct - except'her': I'm male.


In that case I apologise, I had misread it completely :)

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Post #9 Posted: Fri Dec 21, 2018 9:58 am 
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BlindGroup wrote:
Ian Butler wrote:
Concerning rank on OGS, you may be right. But I don't play online enough to know my real online ranking anyway. And if I keep playing strong players, I'll get better and enjoy myself, so what, then, does it matter at what rank these games are played. But you're correct that it might be nicer to have a more stable server to measure my potential increase in strength more.


Totally reasonable and it's not like your rank on OGS has much effect on the strength of your opponents or whether you play even or handicap games ;-) The only reason that I mention this is that you seem much stronger than 9k to me. I was honestly just curious to know how much you'd improved!


Yeah probably 9k isn't that accurate anymore, but perhaps I don't play enough online (I also play on several accounts for some reason) that my rank follows immediately.
I also must confess that my playing strenght online may vary greatly depending on the circumstances. When I get in the right mindset for an online game, I think I can play as a 5 kyu, maybe? 6 kyu or 7 kyu perhaps.
But when I don't manage to get in that good mindset (often it's playing too quickly, not thinking), then perhaps 8-9 kyu is more accurate.

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 Post subject: Re: Moyo game! Close one, too.
Post #10 Posted: Fri Dec 21, 2018 11:02 am 
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Joaz Banbeck wrote:
That is correct - except'her': I'm male.


Oops. Sorry! ;-)

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