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 Post subject: Two Questions from a Recent Game
Post #1 Posted: Wed Dec 19, 2018 2:44 pm 
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Playing black, I ended up with the following board. Seems like approaching the bottom right corner is the right way to go, but what is a good "human" way to do it? It's the Kobayashi. So, my normal inclination would be B. However, the K4 stone cramps the extension. A just gets pincered as usual. I ended up going with C, and expected to get pincered, but my opponent showed me mercy and let me get a base.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . O . . . . a , O . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . . . . . b c . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


Once the corner sequence was done, I then faced the following board. I spent a long time thinking about this move because it seemed like, more than just a move, I needed general strategy for the early middle game. I considered A-E. E felt too passive. and white now has a lot of influence that is begging to get used. C seemed like it would just strengthen white's center. D seemed playable, but didn't seem like it worked very well with my enclosure in the upper left. B does work with that enclosure, but it doesn't really do anything to mitigate all of this influence white has build up by enclosing me. I ended up going for A because I figured that if white wanted to build a wall in the middle, I'd then benefit as much as he would. Did this make sense?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . e . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . d c . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . a . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . b . . O . O O . X O . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . O X X X . O . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . O X . . . X , O . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . O X . . . X O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . O X X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

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 Post subject: Re: Two Questions from a Recent Game
Post #2 Posted: Wed Dec 19, 2018 4:11 pm 
Judan

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First position low approach looks good: if white kicks you extend and then make 2 space extension. If high approach white attach under looks better than a pincer, take the corner point and black has no good extension so solid connect would be heavy. If you want AI-style funzies then 4-4 attach.


This post by Uberdude was liked by 3 people: Bill Spight, BlindGroup, Calvin Clark
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 Post subject: Re: Two Questions from a Recent Game
Post #3 Posted: Wed Dec 19, 2018 4:24 pm 
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Uberdude beat me to it, and at least Leela Zero #195 agrees, for what it's worth.

But something has gone wrong by the 2nd diagram, which looks good for white to me intuitively. (I checked that was LZ and black was down to about 40% by then.) Black's territory doesn't seem as good as white's outside there. Did black extend to L3 after a kick?


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 Post subject: Re: Two Questions from a Recent Game
Post #4 Posted: Thu Dec 20, 2018 9:19 am 
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@Uberdude and @Calvin Clark, thanks! Y'all are correct, I did extend to L3... Didn't really think about it at the time. I poked around a bit in the pro-game data base that I have, and I'm guessing that the right move here is to opt for the 2-space extension to M3 so that I don't get completely surrounded like I did?

I feel like there should be a proverb that says something like the following: "If you find yourself in a position where you don't see a clear good move any where on the board, you've likely already made your mistake..."

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 Post subject: Re: Two Questions from a Recent Game
Post #5 Posted: Thu Dec 20, 2018 10:17 am 
Dies in gote

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I agree that e is a bad idea.

a and b in your second diagram look bad to me--they look too close--but I'm not a moyo game guy, so maybe I'm wrong. As a similar idea to your "a" and "b," I'd consider E10 I suppose. White doesn't have a bunch of points there, and you have clamp on second line so your moves feel too similar to a reduction when you don't need one. I also don't see how either of those moves is sente.

I think the right side of the board is more promising. White's got better prospects than you so I'd think about invading and seeing where he wants to take things. If you play d, and he just takes some points underneath, now you can think about building yuge middle moyo.

But I also agree with you that nothing for black looks particularly promising (not to say it looks terrible) or obvious.


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 Post subject: Re: Two Questions from a Recent Game
Post #6 Posted: Thu Dec 20, 2018 10:47 am 
Honinbo

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BlindGroup wrote:
I feel like there should be a proverb that says something like the following: "If you find yourself in a position where you don't see a clear good move any where on the board, you've likely already made your mistake..."


It's more like, "If you don't see a clear good move anywhere on the board, join the club." ;)

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The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins

My two main guides in life:
My mother and my wife. :)

Everything with love. Stay safe.


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 Post subject: Re: Two Questions from a Recent Game
Post #7 Posted: Thu Dec 20, 2018 10:57 am 
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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc How to catch up?
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . a . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . b . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . O . O O . X O . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . O X X X . O . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . O X . . . X , O . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . O X . . . X O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . O X X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


Yeah, this position looks good for White. Black got enclosed in the opening.

"a" or "b" may offer the best chance to catch up, but White looks like someone who is good at influence. In an influence vs. influence contest, :b1: comes to my mind, as it enlarges Black's sphere of influence while reducing White's.

_________________
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins

My two main guides in life:
My mother and my wife. :)

Everything with love. Stay safe.


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 Post subject: Re: Two Questions from a Recent Game
Post #8 Posted: Thu Dec 20, 2018 11:02 am 
Honinbo

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Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . O . . . 3 . , O . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . . . . . . 1 2 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


Also, I'm curious about :b3: here, as being perhaps somewhat less likely than the stand to get enclosed.

_________________
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins

My two main guides in life:
My mother and my wife. :)

Everything with love. Stay safe.


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 Post subject: Re: Two Questions from a Recent Game
Post #9 Posted: Thu Dec 20, 2018 11:38 am 
Lives in gote

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Bill Spight wrote:
BlindGroup wrote:
I feel like there should be a proverb that says something like the following: "If you find yourself in a position where you don't see a clear good move any where on the board, you've likely already made your mistake..."


It's more like, "If you don't see a clear good move anywhere on the board, join the club." ;)


If you don't see a clear good move anywhere on the board, flip the board.
Maybe it's on the backside.


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 Post subject: Re: Two Questions from a Recent Game
Post #10 Posted: Thu Dec 20, 2018 5:59 pm 
Lives in gote

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Bill Spight wrote:
Also, I'm curious about :b3: here, as being perhaps somewhat less likely than the stand to get enclosed.


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . a . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . O . . . 3 . , O . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . . . 4 . . 1 2 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


How would you follow-up to white 4? The normal attachment at A doesn't seem to work quite as well.

I did find one pro game in which the black 1 was played with the position identical to the lower-right quadrant. They played the following sequence:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 9 . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . 8 . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . 7 . . . 4 . . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . O . . . . 3 , O . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . . . 5 . . 1 2 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . 6 . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


Interesting thing is that the unique move seems to be the kick, not the nobi. There are many games with the position following white 1, but only one plays the kick for black 2. The other 20 play the pincer at N3.


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 Post subject: Re: Two Questions from a Recent Game
Post #11 Posted: Fri Dec 21, 2018 12:15 am 
Honinbo

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BlindGroup wrote:
Bill Spight wrote:
Also, I'm curious about :b3: here, as being perhaps somewhat less likely than the stand to get enclosed.


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . a . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . O . . . 3 . , O . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . . . 4 . . 1 2 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


How would you follow-up to white 4? The normal attachment at A doesn't seem to work quite as well.


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X . . . . . . . X . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X , . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . 5 a . . |
$$ | . . O , . . . . . O . . . 3 . , O . . |
$$ | . . . O . O . . . . . 4 . . 1 2 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]


My first thought is :b5:. :)

How is "a" normal?

_________________
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins

My two main guides in life:
My mother and my wife. :)

Everything with love. Stay safe.

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