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 Post subject: Is patience the greatest virtue?
Post #1 Posted: Sun Dec 23, 2018 4:49 am 
Lives in gote

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So I played a game against an unusual fuseki. I didn't know how to deal with it, but Leela says it was an okay idea, only my corner L&D was not optimal and I blundered a bit early on in the top left corner. I was now behind.

And thus comes a story that I've encountered many times before. Falling behind, meaning I take more risks, leave situations behind that I know are bad but knowing I can't allow gote.
So I get in a bad situation on the bottom. Not even knowing if I can actually save the stones.

So the story of this game is easily said: my opponent outclassed me, I tried too hard to make up and died all over the place :)

But luckily we don't cry when we lose, we try to learn instead. My analysis/conclusion after this game on why I am not up to my opponent's level is twofold, I believe. My 2 main mistakes this game:

- Inferior L&D. (well, his L&D wasn't really tested, mine just wasn't optimal)
- Rushed into bad situations.

So what I need to learn from this game:
- L&D, L&D, L&D. Can't stress how important this is (and I might up my L&D from 10 minutes daily to 15-20)
- Patience is a virtue.

However, perhaps the board is already lost around move 35?

Hope someone can help me confirm/debunk my lessons here and maybe add some additional insights.

Additional question: I spend about 40 seconds on the bottom L&D. Is it solvable? When black played 59, I looked into: J3, J2, M2, M1 and L1. I don't think any of these live. That means 58 had to be at N2. That means gote and game over anyway, I reckon.


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 Post subject: Re: Is patience the greatest virtue?
Post #2 Posted: Sun Dec 23, 2018 8:24 am 
Honinbo

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Top of the head comments:

:w12: Black has just made bad shape. The immediate cut looks dangerous. The three stone forming an empty triangle have only 4 dame, so, according to Wilcox’s heuristic, they are possibly vulnerable. So here is my thinking for White.

White B-14 (crawl) - Black C-13 ; If Black hanes, White cuts.
White E-18 ; Not obvious, perhaps, but, as the game shows, E-17 allows the two step hane.

:w14: Aji keshi, forcing Black to protect his weak point at E-15.

:w18: Probably best to protect the corner with C-18, making good shape.

:w20: C-18 is even more urgent now.

:b25: See? Those two White stone are not a sacrifice, they are a gift.

:w26: B-14 first, to create a cutting point at C-13. Play kikashi before living. Also, B-14 is double sente.

:w32: You are right not to run with your floating stones in the top left. But you want to keep Black from swallowing them on a large scale. How about N-15?

:w40: White does not have a good attack against Black. G-03 or J-03 looks pretty good.

:w44: Why save only one stone? Tenuki looks better to me, now.

:w48: Not much of a threat, since Black has already played P-06.

Not to discourage you from studying Life and Death, but the problem on the bottom side came earlier, at :w40: and :w44:.

After your bad result in the top left, you did well not to run with your floating stones. A lot of players would have tried that. :)

P. S. Other thoughts.

:b53: Don't you wish you had played G-03 ( :w52:) earlier?

:w50: Maybe crawl once more at J-03, and then slide to G-02 if Black extends?

_________________
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— Winona Adkins

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 Post subject: Re: Is patience the greatest virtue?
Post #3 Posted: Sun Dec 23, 2018 11:23 am 
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Bill Spight wrote:
Top of the head comments:

:w12: Black has just made bad shape. The immediate cut looks dangerous. The three stone forming an empty triangle have only 4 dame, so, according to Wilcox’s heuristic, they are possibly vulnerable. So here is my thinking for White.

White B-14 (crawl) - Black C-13 ; If Black hanes, White cuts.
White E-18 ; Not obvious, perhaps, but, as the game shows, E-17 allows the two step hane.

:w14: Aji keshi, forcing Black to protect his weak point at E-15.

:w18: Probably best to protect the corner with C-18, making good shape.

:w20: C-18 is even more urgent now.

:b25: See? Those two White stone are not a sacrifice, they are a gift.

:w26: B-14 first, to create a cutting point at C-13. Play kikashi before living. Also, B-14 is double sente.

:w32: You are right not to run with your floating stones in the top left. But you want to keep Black from swallowing them on a large scale. How about N-15?

:w40: White does not have a good attack against Black. G-03 or J-03 looks pretty good.

:w44: Why save only one stone? Tenuki looks better to me, now.

:w48: Not much of a threat, since Black has already played P-06.

Not to discourage you from studying Life and Death, but the problem on the bottom side came earlier, at :w40: and :w44:.

After your bad result in the top left, you did well not to run with your floating stones. A lot of players would have tried that. :)

P. S. Other thoughts.

:b53: Don't you wish you had played G-03 ( :w52:) earlier?

:w50: Maybe crawl once more at J-03, and then slide to G-02 if Black extends?


Thanks, Bill!
I knew black made bad shape, perhaps cutting was the best way to take advantage after all. I didn't want to cut when I was weak myself, but if I cut, we're both weak, and that's better than me being weak and him being able to fix his weaknesses!

The stones that were gifted (not sacrificed indeed), I must admit, were a horrible blindspot in my playing. I hadn't even seen it, can you believe that? I think the double 4-5 opening had a great effect on me. All through the game, I was constantly thinking how I'd counter the influence or the moyo... It really threw me off and I think I wasn't paying attention to local situations much. I think mostly because I've never seen the opening before and have never studied 4-5 joseki before (I checked a few variations now, though).
So my play there was just bad, no other word for it :)

Tenuki at :w44: would never be on my radar. It just seems so big to tenuki. But seeing as (even if I lived) black gets more and more influence, it might've been the wiser choice. Tough call to make, though.

For some reason, I was quite blind to B14 in this game. Leela also pointed it out and I was like: yes, of course. It's so obvious. But it didn't come during the game. Once again, I think black's intimidation (if it was that, probably not) worked wonders because I was not thinking clearly :lol:

Thanks for the commendation, though, too, on my decision not running the stones out. I was looking at them and thought: if I try to run these out, the game is over. Even if they live. There are bigger things to do first. Like dying on the bottom of the board :D

So not my best game, maybe my worst in a long time, but it's been a very good game to me, because it finally made me go look at some 3-5 and 4-5 joseki and maybe next time I won't be freaked out by an unusual opening. I kind of want to try that opening for myself now, though :cool:

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 Post subject: Re: Is patience the greatest virtue?
Post #4 Posted: Sun Dec 23, 2018 12:11 pm 
Honinbo

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Ian Butler wrote:
Tenuki at :w44: would never be on my radar. It just seems so big to tenuki. But seeing as (even if I lived) black gets more and more influence, it might've been the wiser choice. Tough call to make, though.


Well, you were, quite rightly!, willing to leave your floating stones be. The single stone on the bottom is in worse shape. As the song says, "Let it be, let it be, let it be, let it be." :)

I have a heuristic for local play that I advocate for DDKs, even. Most of the time, a play should get one stone ahead of the opponent locally or catch up. In this case, Black outnumbers White locally by 5 stones to 1. White needs 4 plays in a row to catch up. The first thought, even of a DDK, should be tenuki. :) If you still want to play on the bottom side, approaching the corner with G-03 would be a good play to start with.

Quote:
For some reason, I was quite blind to B14 in this game. Leela also pointed it out and I was like: yes, of course. It's so obvious.


Here is where Wilcox's heuristic comes into play. Simply count the dame of the three stones. Only four. Both the cut and B-14 come into consideration. :)


Quote:
Thanks for the commendation, though, too, on my decision not running the stones out. I was looking at them and thought: if I try to run these out, the game is over.


Yes. Well done! :D

Quote:
I kind of want to try that opening for myself now, though :cool:


During the New Fuseki era, sometimes White played that double 5-4 against Black's Nirensei. How bad can the double 5-4 be for Black? :lol:

_________________
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins

My two main guides in life:
My mother and my wife. :)

Everything with love. Stay safe.

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 Post subject: Re: Is patience the greatest virtue?
Post #5 Posted: Sun Dec 23, 2018 12:19 pm 
Tengen
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At move 72, you are so far behind that you must gamble. So play the most treacherous, complicated moves that you can find. Then if he does find his way through, you can resign.

But give him a chance to blunder first. ( This, BTW, is the logical equivalent of Martindale betting )

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | O . O X . X . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O X . X . X . . X . . X . . O . . |
$$ | O . O O X O O . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . O X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X . . O . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . X . . . . . X . X O . . . |
$$ | . . O 1 O O X 3 . . . X O X . . . . . |
$$ | . X . , X X O X X X X O O X . O . . . |
$$ | . . 2 . X O O O O O O O . X . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . X X O . . . . . X . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


This move ultimately does not work, but it gives black plenty of opportunities to make a mistake.

First, it threatens to kill the corner. ( I think. I haven't read all the variations )

When black defends, cut with :w3:. Black has to defend the cut at L5, but lots of kyu players won't see that.

Here are some of the amusing ways that black can blunder:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | O . O X . X . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O X . X . X . . X . . X . . O . . |
$$ | O . O O X O O . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . O X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X . . O . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . X . 4 . . 6 X . X O . . . |
$$ | . . O 1 O O X 3 7 . 5 X O X . . . . . |
$$ | . X . , X X O X X X X O O X . O . . . |
$$ | . . 2 . X O O O O O O O . X . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . X X O . . . . . X . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc the ladder works for white
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | O . O X . X . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O X . X . X . . X . . X . . O . . |
$$ | O . O O X O O . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . O X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X . . O . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 9 7 . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 8 X 5 . . . 6 X . X O . . . |
$$ | . . O 1 O O X 3 4 . . X O X . . . . . |
$$ | . X . , X X O X X X X O O X . O . . . |
$$ | . . 2 . X O O O O O O O . X . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . X X O . . . . . X . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc Something will die
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | O . O X . X . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O X . X . X . . X . . X . . O . . |
$$ | O . O O X O O . . , . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . O X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . X X . . O . . . . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . 6 9 . . . . . . O . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . X 5 7 8 . . X . X O . . . |
$$ | . . O 1 O O X 3 4 . . X O X . . . . . |
$$ | . X . , X X O X X X X O O X . O . . . |
$$ | . . 2 . X O O O O O O O . X . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . X X O . . . . . X . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

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 Post subject: Re: Is patience the greatest virtue?
Post #6 Posted: Sun Dec 23, 2018 1:47 pm 
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The variations you show are really interesting. It seems white has more options/dangerous moves than I realized.
Before resigning, I was looking into the M5 cut, but decided it didn't work, so I resigned. To be honest, though, I didn't see any of your variations, though I got close to the second one you showed, where the four stones might get in liberty problem.

Still, I thought it wouldn't work and resigned. Maybe I play too "honest" in that fashion. I usually don't figure my opponent's blunders in my reading/playing. (well, what constitutes a blunder anyway...)
But had I seen your variations, I think I would've tried them. Because at my level, the variations you show don't really seem like blunders to me, more like mistakes. The variation I had in mind wouldn't work unless my opponent actually blundered at his level, because it was a slightly easier variation. I don't know if that makes any sense :lol: I have a hard time explaining it.

Either way, I felt I had lost the game on skill and was outplayed. I had made an early mistake and it kind of snowballed and I felt the things I needed to learn from this game were in the opening in this case. But maybe I lacked fighting spirit :)

Thanks!

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