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 Post subject: Fail to attack.
Post #1 Posted: Thu Jan 24, 2019 12:00 pm 
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I tried to analyse this with Leela, unfortunately for this particular game she's not very useful to me. Or, to phrase is another way: I'd like a human explaining me where things go wrong, using words instead of a silent neural network :)

The game is as following:



I am black in this particular game.
I lose the game at move 256. I tried to read out the block at B2, but I missed the extra liberty because that white stone in atari, and I let my corner turn into a seki, game losing move. Very sad to lose the game in such a late state. Especially with 19 minutes left on the clock, it is deserving that I lose the game that way and shame on me. I should read that for 15 minutes if it takes, because it will decide the game. Unfortunately I've had a rather bad day personally and after all that and 255 moves in this game, I was spent. So I lose, very deservingly.

However, that is not the question.
The game could've been decided earlier, I think. And it's something that shows up so much in my games, it's a major weakness.

That is attack.

I almost never kill anything. But that's not catastrophic, things often don't need to die.
I almost never profit from attacking, that is too big a problem.

Does anyone have tips for me, or show me the error in my thinking with the above game? I've read Attack and Defense so many times now, but it's not sinking in, I'm still doing it completely wrong.
And let's face it, this game had plenty of attacking possibilities. White was weak several times. Did I ever take advantage? Only once, for a capture of a few stones. (big capture, though, but still I feel I should've gotten way more out of this game)

Attacking is my biggest failure of this game.


And I really do hate seki :lol: It's ruined dozens of CrazyStone games for me, and now here. Is there some kind of rule for knowing when you need to enforce your corner? Because I hate plucking down stones that take away points, but when my opponent turns it into seki, it's even worse.
Still, I want to kick the habit of placing stones "just to make sure". I'd rather have my corner turn seki 1000 times and eventually learn the difference than forever lose points by overly defending.
I really thought that corner was safe. Well, it actually was, but we've gone over that :oops: :shock:

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 Post subject: Re: Fail to attack.
Post #2 Posted: Thu Jan 24, 2019 12:35 pm 
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Ian Butler wrote:
Is there some kind of rule for knowing when you need to enforce your corner?


Self answer. Of course not. Don't be silly. Go is never that easy. Learn to read better.
And even then, there will always be corners turned into seki. But at least you'll see it coming!
:D

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 Post subject: Re: Fail to attack.
Post #3 Posted: Thu Jan 24, 2019 12:45 pm 
Gosei

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No reading, just instincts based on a skim: in this game you tend to follow your opponent, and assume that anything that has any sort of threat must be sente. If your threats are bigger than their threats, follow up on yours instead of reacting to theirs!

It seems rather ridiculous that White's group at the top lived so easily. It is as if you never believed you could kill it.

:b18:: Attack D16, or M17, or R14, rather than playing dame. I understand that you don't want to get sealed in, but you're not one move from getting sealed in, and White has more to worry about than you do.

:b26:: Attack M17. Same goes in general through :b34: or so.

:b42:: If you are going to play in this area, you are pretty strong on both sides and he has a single stone, attack! Capping with F7 looks fun. I don't know if it's really the best move but the spirit is the important thing.

:b46:: K18 looks like it works?


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 Post subject: Re: Fail to attack.
Post #4 Posted: Thu Jan 24, 2019 4:48 pm 
Honinbo

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Overall, you played well. :)

But there were some small plays and some tactical errors.


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— Winona Adkins

My two main guides in life:
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Everything with love. Stay safe.


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 Post subject: Re: Fail to attack.
Post #5 Posted: Thu Jan 24, 2019 9:38 pm 
Oza
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Ian Butler wrote:
...
I lose the game at move 256. ...

Say rather you failed to safely win the game at 250. :-)
One essential of successful fighting is being alive to the possibilities in the positions that you face/create. You had just filled a White liberty with the marked move below. When White descended at :w1:, you should have played :b2:, which fixes the problem that caught you later and happens to be absolute sente. Why? Assume White atari's your three stones next. Should you connect? No! You should exploit your previous play and capture the White stones at the bottom. White cannot play from behind until she connects at the marked point at K7.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . O X X . . . . X X . 1 . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O O X X . X X . . X O O O O O . . |
$$ | . . . O O X X O X X X O O X O X X O . |
$$ | . O . O X X O . O O X X X X X X . O . |
$$ | . . O O O . O O O X O . . . X O O . . |
$$ | . O . . O O . O X X . O . . X X O . . |
$$ | O . O O X O O . O 3 X . . . X . X O . |
$$ | . O X X X X O X O O X . . . . X O . . |
$$ | O X X X O O O . O X X O . . . X O . . |
$$ | . O O X O X X O O X X O . . . X O . . |
$$ | O O X X X X . X O X . X X X . X O O O |
$$ | . O X . . X X O O O X B X O X . X O X |
$$ | . O O O X X O . . C O O O O O X X O X |
$$ | . X O 4 O X . O O O X X O O X . X X X |
$$ | . X X 2 O X X X O X . . X O X X . . . |
$$ | . . . X O X . O X X X X X O O O X . . |
$$ | . . . X O O X X X O O X O O O X X . . |
$$ | . . X X X O X O O 7 O O X . 9 O X X . |
$$ | . . . X O O O 5 . 6 . 0 . 8 O O O X . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

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This post by ez4u was liked by 2 people: Joaz Banbeck, sorin
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 Post subject: Re: Fail to attack.
Post #6 Posted: Thu Jan 24, 2019 10:11 pm 
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There were already several nice, in-detail suggestions, so I want to highlight just one move that stood out for me: I would have played J3 very early (for instance instead of R8, but even earlier than that; also, after R8, black has several opportunities to play J3).

I emphasize J3 since you mentioned that you feel you don't attack enough; I like this kind of move, since it expands your potential while putting pressure on the opponent.
For instance, instead of R8, I would consider playing J3, white jumps on the 6th line from the 2 stones group, then black extends around R7, so you still get to play on the right side, but in a more active way.

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 Post subject: Re: Fail to attack.
Post #7 Posted: Fri Jan 25, 2019 3:58 am 
Honinbo

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There is a cute endgame lurking in my comments.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm52 Aji keshi
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X O O . . O 2 . O . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . . X X X O O 1 O . X O . |
$$ | . O . O . X . . . , . X X X X X . O . |
$$ | . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X O O X . X . . O . . X . O . . |
$$ | O X . . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O . . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


:b52: is aji keshi. (Actual game.)

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm52 Sacrifice with sente.
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X O O . . O . 1 O 4 . |
$$ | . . . . O X . . X X X O O . O 2 X O . |
$$ | . O . O . X . . . , . X X X X X 3 O . |
$$ | . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X O O X . X . . O . . X . O . . |
$$ | O X . . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O . . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


This sacrifice strengthens Black with sente. That may not seem like much, but in the resulting position Black has a cute endgame play (hidden for those who want to find it :))

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Shortage of liberties
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X O O . . O . B O O . |
$$ | . . . . O X . . X X X O O . O O X O . |
$$ | . O . O . X . . . , . X X X X X X O . |
$$ | . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X O O X . X . . O . . X . O . . |
$$ | O X . . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O . . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


In the top right White has four, count'em four, strings that are short of liberties. They share seven liberties (dame) less than two liberties per string, on average. How to take advantage?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Cut!
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X O O 1 . O . B O O . |
$$ | . . . . O X . . X X X O O . O O X O . |
$$ | . O . O . X . . . , . X X X X X X O . |
$$ | . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X O O X . X . . O . . X . O . . |
$$ | O X . . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O . . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


:b1: cuts. How can White capture it?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Double atari
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X O O 1 . O . B O O . |
$$ | . . . . O X . . X X X O O 3 O O X O . |
$$ | . O . O . X . . . , . X X X X X X O . |
$$ | . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X O O X . X . . O . . X . O . . |
$$ | O X . . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O . . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


If :w2:, :b3: is a double atari. Oops! :oops:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc Golden cock stands on one leg
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 3 4 . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . X O O 1 2 O 5 B O O . |
$$ | . . . . O X . . X X X O O . O O X O . |
$$ | . O . O . X . . . , . X X X X X X O . |
$$ | . . O . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X X O O X . X . . O . . X . O . . |
$$ | O X . . X O O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . O X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . , X . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . O . . O . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


If White tries this :w2:, :b3: descends to the edge (Golden cock stands on one leg). Now if :w4: plays atari, :b5:. Bingo! :shock: :cool: :lol:

_________________
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At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins

My two main guides in life:
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Everything with love. Stay safe.

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 Post subject: Re: Fail to attack.
Post #8 Posted: Fri Jan 25, 2019 11:41 am 
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@dfan
You may be on to something. Fear, or a limited self-confidence is certainly an easy pitfall for me, and one I succumb to once too often, probably.
Will need to keep thinking for every move if it's sente or not!
Then again, that also requires some reading, which I do in most games, but some games are "lazier" or let us say, more blitz, than others. This was more blitz-y.
Your suggested moves make sense. Some of them, I had considered, but not played :)

@Bill
Thank you for your comments and alternative moves!
I'm also happy to see the evolution in these reviews, where things you are pointing out now are certainly less optimal plays, but less and less often actual (big) mistakes. Also it gives me pleasure that during the game, some of your variations were taken under consideration (and less pleasure that I then refutes them and played my lesser move :lol: )
Some of my counter-comments/questions:

at :b68: you propose to push to create weaknesses. It was my first thought, but then I remembered the saying: don't push unless you're going to cut. Or perhaps it doesn't count here because if white doesn't defend I can cut so he'll be weaker and it'll still be my sente?
:b74: your variation was the natural move for me, I almost played it without thinking. Then I started thinking, and I guess I thought wrong :D
At black 158 the "see variation" has no variation :)

Anyway, thanks again!

@ez4u
Wow. I mean, perhaps that's ez4u2c, but that's a line I don't read (yet) at my level. Impressive capture that'd be. During the game I was looking at the bottom group and like: if I cut it off there, can I do something? But I couldn't see anything :)

@sorin
it's interesting you'd say that, because even at move 6 I was considering J3. But I kept thinking that it'd be counter-pincered and I'd get into a fight, where white could attack both that stone and the corner.
I guess that boils down to strong vs weak again and I shouldn't be afraid when white makes 2 weak groups in a running fight. Somehow I always think I'll be the weak one, but that's not necessarily so...

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 Post subject: Re: Fail to attack.
Post #9 Posted: Fri Jan 25, 2019 12:24 pm 
Honinbo

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Ian Butler wrote:
Some of my counter-comments/questions:

at :b68: you propose to push to create weaknesses.

It's actually called a wedge. :)

Quote:
It was my first thought, but then I remembered the saying: don't push unless you're going to cut.


I don't know that saying. :oops: :lol:

Quote:
Or perhaps it doesn't count here because if white doesn't defend I can cut so he'll be weaker and it'll still be my sente?


As I recall, Znosko-Borovosky said something like, "Don't miss an opportunity to create a weakness." That may apply more to chess than go, but it's not a bad idea.

Quote:
:b74: your variation was the natural move for me, I almost played it without thinking. Then I started thinking, and I guess I thought wrong :D


When you have a no-brainer, why think? {Just teasing a bit. ;)}

Quote:
At black 158 the "see variation" has no variation :)


I changed my mind. You play was fine. :)

_________________
The Adkins Principle:
At some point, doesn't thinking have to go on?
— Winona Adkins

My two main guides in life:
My mother and my wife. :)

Everything with love. Stay safe.

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 Post subject: Re: Fail to attack.
Post #10 Posted: Fri Jan 25, 2019 1:51 pm 
Gosei

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Ian Butler wrote:
@dfan
Your suggested moves make sense. Some of them, I had considered, but not played :)

Good! The road from 1) "didn't even consider this move" to 3) "played this move" passes through 2) "considered this move but decided against it". A lot of my individual progress that I can measure consists of going from 1 to 2 or from 2 to 3 in various instances, rather than directly from 1 to 3.

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