Tournament game vs 2kyu EGF

marvin · #1

Hi!

I decided to ask humans for review of a game for a change

.

Here is a game I played recently on a tournament. Even though we had 75 min of time per player, the last part of the game was played in byo-yomi, some of which I didn't record.

I would be grateful for a review. I am especially interested in two things:
- mistakes in the strategy
- small mistakes (for example connecting stones slightly differently)

Bill Spight · #2

A few top of the head comments.

Play in the top right corner. Even humans suspected that there was something wrong with these early extensions, by the mid-20th century. The bots are teaching us to leave the two stones alone when there are bigger plays, such as in an empty corner. If pincered, you can tenuki, counter-pincer, or jump out.

:w12:

Approach the bottom left corner. You have prevented a Black enclosure with sente. Time to play in another corner. This idea was known to humans more than 300 years ago.

:w14:

This is probably playable, but why not approach the bottom left corner?

:w20:

These stones do not need protection now. Do you have anything against approaching the bottom left corner?

:w22:

Gives Black territory and strength for a dubious advantage in the center. Cringeworthy. OC, time to approach the bottom left corner.

:w24:

Looks small.

:w26:

This approach was sometimes played in ancient times, and sometimes in recent years against the Chinese Fuseki. But in this case it's a clear loser. It makes the bottom side difficult to invade, while after :w28:

the left side is still wide open.

:b29:

Looks funny.

:w30:

,

,

Vulgar play. But it succeeded wildly.

:b33:

Locally better to make the solid connection. This play makes bad shape. Maybe Black should even strengthen the center and let White take the one stone.

:b37:

Probably better just to extend and not worry about one stone.

:b43:

Probably better to make the one space jump, cutting the sector line, and make a fight of it.

:w46:

Success.

Edit: I checked with Deep Leela (Leela 11). It disagrees with me about :b29:

,

,

, and

. Also, it does not think that the success with :w46:

is all that wild.

jlt · #3

Bill Spight wrote:

,

,

Vulgar play. But it succeeded wildly.

Just wondering... what do you mean by "vulgar play"? Heavy? Or something else?

kaiq1a1 · #4

jlt wrote:

Bill Spight wrote:

,

,

Vulgar play. But it succeeded wildly.

Just wondering... what do you mean by "vulgar play"? Heavy? Or something else?

He means crude play.

Joaz Banbeck · #5

jlt wrote:

Bill Spight wrote:

,

,

Vulgar play. But it succeeded wildly.

Just wondering... what do you mean by "vulgar play"? Heavy? Or something else?

A vulgar play is one that achieves some immediate goal, but has a longer term defect - often a defect so great that the net effect is negative.
The implication is that there were greater benefits to be had with more patient and subtle moves.

( You are in good company. A pro would consider most of us on these boards to be playing vulgar moves quite regularly. And he would probably be right. )

In your case, you did get the cut ( immediate goal ), but you did have a group of stones at K13, K14, and K15 that were severely compromised by being short of liberties. Fortunately for you, your opponent did not notice this.

Joaz Banbeck · #6

Joaz Banbeck wrote:

... you did have a group of stones at K13, K14, and K15 that were severely compromised by being short of liberties. Fortunately for you, your opponent did not notice this.

Suppose that your opponent had noticed how weak your K13-K15 stones had become.

Your opponent panicked when you played Q13. His stone at R11 is light. He should have ignored the threat against one of his stones and instead made a threat against a bunch of yours:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc Position at move 43 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . O X . . . . . O X . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . O X X . O . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . O . X O . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . X O . O . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . X . X O . . 2 . . 1 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . X O X X . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . B . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . O O . . | $$ | . . X , X . . . . , X X . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Also, a few moves prior, your opponent could have played better defense:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . O 1 . . . . . O X . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . 2 3 X . O . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . O . X O . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . X O . O . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |[/go]

He forces you to make a very efficient shape in the upper left, while making an inefficient shape - an empty triangle - for himself:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$ $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . W B . . . . . O X . . . | $$ | . . . W . . . W B B . O . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . W . X O . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . W . . . . . X O . O . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . |[/go]

Better would have been to do this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$ Position at move 33 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . . O X . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . 1 X . O . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . O . X O . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . X O . O . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . O O . . | $$ | . . X , X . . . . , X X . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Now he not only has possibilities for the counter attack to the right, he also has possibilities to the left:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc White has two weak stones near a much stronger black wall $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . W . . . . . . O X . . . | $$ | . . . O 2 . . . X X . O . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . W . X O . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . X O . O . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . X . X O . . . . . 1 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . X O X X . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . O O . . | $$ | . . X , X . . . . , X X . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Knotwilg · #7

Usually I don't comment on the opening, since the game is nearly always decided later and also Bill is usually sooner and always better at commenting it. I want to make an exception because the position at 28 is strikingly out of balance. Compare Black's stones, what they are doing and how they are doing it, with White's stones. The Black stones tell a much clearer story.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$ Position at move 28 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . O . . . . . . O X . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . X . O . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . O . X . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . O O . . | $$ | . . X , X . . . . , X X . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Black:
- top right, a safe corner plus an extension, which threatens to undercut an enemy group
- lower right, a stable corner plus 4th line development
- lower left, a corner enclosure, which together with the lower right may form a moyo
- top, stones which are out in the centre and cutting off enemy stones

White:
- top right, an abandoned stone plus floating stones behind enemy lines
- lower right, central influence; the 4th line stone is influential but unstable
- lower left, two stones under development (the only truly efficient stones White has)
- top left, 4 stones developing a sphere of influence, but the corner can still be invaded and this will make the influence overlapping

This difference in efficiency is due to a number of unfavorable exchanges:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$ Position at move 28 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . 8 . . . . . . O 7 . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . X . O . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . O . X . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 9 . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . 0 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 6 4 . . O O . . | $$ | . . X , 1 . . . . , 5 3 . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

As Bill pointed out, the exchange of :b1:

-

is not good for White
Giving Black 4th line territory in exchange of 5th line influence is usually not good (3-4 and 5-6)
At the top, the not so ideal extension of :w8:

was done in exchange for strong corner territory at :b7:

And although not a direct exchange, the opposition of :b9:

and

is again in Black's favor. :w0: as an extension is way too close to its 4 stone wall.

Joaz Banbeck · #8

Bill Spight wrote:

...

Locally better to make the solid connection...

Edit: I checked with Deep Leela (Leela 11). It disagrees with me about ... :b33:

...

It does? Leela likes the H16-J16 exchange? I find that hard to believe.

Knotwilg · #9

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B White has two weak stones near a much stronger black wall $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . a . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 2 . . . W . . . . . . O X . . . | $$ | . . . O 1 . . . X X . O . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . W . X O . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . X O . O . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . X . X O . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . X O X X . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . O O . . | $$ | . . X , X . . . . , X X . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

You are right in your assessment that White's keima is weak, lying against Black's wal. Therefore, cutting the keima is of no interest to Black. Even attacking those stones with your suggested move :b1:

is probably small, in comparison to White securing the corner with :w2:

and give the slide of A still being available.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B White has two weak stones near a much stronger black wall $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . a . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . W 1 . . . . . O X . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . 2 X X . O . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . W . X O . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . X O . O . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . X . X O . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . X O X X . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . O O . . | $$ | . . X , X . . . . , X X . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

The

-

exchange, though clumsy in appearance, deprives White of the slide at A and turns the weak keima into a heavy lump. Perhaps more importantly, there's eyespace there for all, not the least for Black himself.

It's explaining hindsight but I think I understand LZ's evaluation.

marvin · **#10**

Thank you a lot, this really gave me some thought

.

Vulgar play is a reappearing problem of mine. Some ideas how to avoid it? (I had in mind cut first, think later.) Problem is that it quite often works quite well against weaker opponents... So you would decide not to cut, where would you play :w30:

? The stones are weak, I thought about P16, N13, O14, but I didn't like any of them.

Knotwilg's analysis was also very illustrative, I did not realize how much better is the situation for black. Seeing it as exchanges helps.

Knotwilg · **#11**

marvin wrote:

Thank you a lot, this really gave me some thought

.

Vulgar play is a reappearing problem of mine. Some ideas how to avoid it? (I had in mind cut first, think later.

Take move 32: it doesn’t cut, I threatens to cut if the opponent passes(plays elsewhere). A move that is only a good move if the ppponent passes locally is likely bad. A cut is often strong, regatdless of the answer. But a threat to cut which forces to connect is a whole other matter.

So, What if your opponent answers? Is he happyer than before?

dfan · **#12**

At move 33, Leela Zero with network 220 and 100k+ playouts suggests the following moves, in descending order of number of visits. Variations are determined by actually playing them out, and the winrate given is that at the end of the variation, which is sometimes different from that at the start.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$ 53% $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . O 2 5 . . . . O X . . . | $$ | . . . O . . 4 1 3 X . O . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . O . X O . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . X O . O . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . X 6 . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . O O . . | $$ | . . X , X . . . . , X X . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$ 51% $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . O . . . 3 7 . O X . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . 2 X 1 O 6 . . , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . O . X O . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . X O . O . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . X 4 . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . 8 5 X . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . O O . . | $$ | . . X , X . . . . , X X . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$ 51% $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . O 1 . . . . . O X . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . 2 3 X . O . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . O . X O . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . X O . O . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . X 4 . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . O O . . | $$ | . . X , X . . . . , X X . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$ 51% $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . O 6 9 . . . . O X . . . | $$ | . . . O . . 8 5 7 X . O . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . O . X O 1 . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . X O . O . 0 . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . X 2 . 4 . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . 3 X . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . O O . . | $$ | . . X , X . . . . , X X . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$ 46% $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . a . . . O . . . . . . O X . . . | $$ | . . b O . . . . 1 X . O . . . , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . O . X O . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . X O . O . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . O O . . O O . . | $$ | . . X , X . . . . , X X . . 2 , X . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

My conclusion is that Leela Zero thinks that the solid connection doesn't put enough pressure on White's upper right to force him to respond locally, and losing sente is a big deal to it. In fact it is just about as excited about playing a or b as it is by the solid connection.

Uberdude · **#13**

The attachment also has this followup aiming at a/b miai, not saying it's best locally but it wins kudos points, which is what go is all about, right?

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Uberdude · **#14**

For 30 p16 doesn't look terrible. It pretty much settles your group and makes r13 in future have some oomph.

Bill Spight · **#15**

marvin wrote:

Thank you a lot, this really gave me some thought

.

Vulgar play is a reappearing problem of mine. Some ideas how to avoid it?

Learn tesuji.

Tournament game vs 2kyu EGF

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