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Lopsided game - who, why and how? http://www.lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=17469 |
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Author: | Knotwilg [ Thu May 07, 2020 12:55 pm ] |
Post subject: | Lopsided game - who, why and how? |
In this game position, after Black 71, one of the two has a winning chance of 95% 1. Who is it? Why? (question 2-4 are hidden) |
Author: | Harleqin [ Thu May 07, 2020 6:36 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Lopsided game - who, why and how? |
Author: | jlt [ Thu May 07, 2020 11:53 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Lopsided game - who, why and how? |
It reminds me of Bill's positional judgment problems. My guess was wrong, and I still don't understand the bot's evaluation. |
Author: | Knotwilg [ Fri May 08, 2020 1:04 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: Lopsided game - who, why and how? |
jlt wrote: It reminds me of Bill's positional judgment problems. My guess was wrong, and I still don't understand the bot's evaluation. If you try solving question 2-4 then you may get into the bot's evaluation. (I did ) And yes, the idea is to harvest positions from my games where one is clearly in the lead, like Bill's problems; |
Author: | Uberdude [ Fri May 08, 2020 2:07 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: Lopsided game - who, why and how? |
My analysis: |
Author: | Bill Spight [ Fri May 08, 2020 4:40 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: Lopsided game - who, why and how? |
FWIW. |
Author: | Knotwilg [ Fri May 08, 2020 6:04 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: Lopsided game - who, why and how? |
I've analyzed the position with LZ and the way I would interpret it largely corresponds to Uberdude's no-LZ analysis. Impressive!!! Uberdude evaluates the ko in the lower left as lighter for Black but possible for White. According to LZ and per my interpretation, White will win this ko and Black won't have sufficient compensation for losing it. For further analysis, see the sgf at 71: |
Author: | gennan [ Fri May 08, 2020 11:08 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: Lopsided game - who, why and how? |
According to KataGo, white is leading by 6-13 points from move 66 to move 71. I'm sure that's lopsided for a superhuman AI (95%), but I dare say that a 10 point lead around move 70 is not a huge lead at lower dan level. When I check the game with KataGo, the game was favourable for white since move 23. But just before the position of the original post, both players made a couple of 20 point mistakes in a span of 6 moves from move 61 to move 66. The frequency and size of those mistakes indicate that 10 points can evaporate quite easily at this level. From move 61 to move 66, black missed a couple of opportunities to save his lower left group and white missed a couple of opportunities to kill it. White misses his last chance to kill on move 66 at F8. This might be an interesting problem for players who haven't checked the game with an AI: White to kill black in the lower left and take a 30 point lead. |
Author: | Uberdude [ Fri May 08, 2020 11:11 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: Lopsided game - who, why and how? |
h7 looks tempting |
Author: | gennan [ Fri May 08, 2020 11:30 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: Lopsided game - who, why and how? |
Well spotted Uberdude! |
Author: | Knotwilg [ Fri May 08, 2020 12:04 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Lopsided game - who, why and how? |
gennan wrote: Well spotted Uberdude! Funny: when you posted this position from my own game, which I had quite thoroughly analyzed before, with "white to kill", I also saw H7 immediately. Not to take anything away from Uberdude, who has given a very convincing display of his positional judgment and now his killer instinct. Nice! Indeed, a 10 point advantage is not a sure path to victory at my level, as can be seen from almost any game of mine. But in this particular game I could really "feel" the advantage I had. I'm sensitive to a lead in thickness and I'm more frustrated when not capitalizing upon that then when losing a territorial lead. I'll post a very different game next. |
Author: | Knotwilg [ Fri May 08, 2020 12:11 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Lopsided game - who, why and how? |
When we were children we used to play role games using the past tense "You were Cho Chikun and I was Takemiya". Well, without saying which side I was, who do you think is 88% / 18pts ahead as per Kata's analysis after 14K plies? It's White to play. Invade? Reduce? If so, where? What to expect? |
Author: | gennan [ Fri May 08, 2020 12:30 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Lopsided game - who, why and how? |
Can you add coordinates please? |
Author: | gennan [ Fri May 08, 2020 12:42 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Lopsided game - who, why and how? |
Author: | Bill Spight [ Fri May 08, 2020 1:36 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Lopsided game - who, why and how? |
Well, the bots have shown me that I don't know how to evaluate outside influence. But neither does Takemiya. FWIW: |
Author: | gennan [ Sat May 09, 2020 1:11 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: Lopsided game - who, why and how? |
Author: | Leon [ Mon May 11, 2020 12:01 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Lopsided game - who, why and how? |
Author: | Knotwilg [ Mon May 11, 2020 3:13 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: Lopsided game - who, why and how? |
Author: | Knotwilg [ Fri May 15, 2020 2:49 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: Lopsided game - who, why and how? |
From another game of mine. Can you tell the story of this game? Who has a 90% chance of winning here? Why? Who has made which mistake? |
Author: | Farodin [ Fri May 15, 2020 3:43 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: Lopsided game - who, why and how? |
I think black is ahead by quite a bit. White has roughly 38 solid points, while black has 10 (I'm not counting the upper left as points yet). However, when it comes to potential, black has a much more favourable position. White has the following problems: 1. The bottom left corner is completely enclosed 2. The bottom right group is not yet settled 3. Even though white is extremely thick in the upper right (to the point where I would call it overconcentrated), black's bottom right stone on the 2nd line prevents the right side from becoming truly big for white. So black roughly needs to make about 30 points to win this game, which seems very doable considering the 2 unsettled white groups (upper left and bottom right). I suspect the bottom left started out as a black enclosure from a 4-4 point, so white choosing to go into the corner seems to give black exactly what he wanted. The bottom right also feels too good for black, considering each side spent an equal amount of moves. |
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