Review Request 8k-9k

00Noles · #1

Hello to you all again!
After i haven't been playing much throughout the winter months, i lastly got into playing some go again! Today i had an very interesting match on KGS i really wanted to review a little more in detail. So i went over a few positions and meanwhile fed the game to GRP to see what Leela has to say to all of this. In the end i found a few mistakes i made, but nothing that seems gamelosing at my current level (considering that my opponent also made a few suboptimal moves).
Was i to concerned with what my opponent may want to do and missed out on taking points myself? I tried to take and hold on to the initiative a little more, than in my previous games as it seemed to me as if i tend to play a little slow. Or did i get behind just because of the amount of ok-but-not-ideal-moves i played?

I added comments and variations to the game, feel free to comment on those too if i get something wrong. If you have any tips on how to get more out of one owns game reviews, that would of course also be appreciated.

PS: If in my comments a move is considered "also fine" it means that it is among the preferred 4-5 choices of the bot, which makes it ok for me.. i guess :lol:

Thanks for you time

Attachment:

NolesVSelwe_review.sgf [20.66 KiB]
Downloaded 547 times

EdLee · #2

Quote:

Was i to[sic] concerned with what my opponent may want to do and missed out on taking points myself? ... Or did i get behind just because of the amount of ok-but-not-ideal-moves i played?

Hi Noles,

General reply to general questions: improve the fundamentals ( foundation ); always look at the global situation; no escape: must study the specifics of each mistake, one move at a time.

Hades12 · #3

I think your play all the way up to L4 is perfectly fine. In fact, I applaud you for having a patient style. No big errors until L4, which you seem to have thoroughly explored, so I won't hammer it in. But this shape would be useful to remember...

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc This is a label for the diagram. $$w --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . X X X . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . X . O . O O . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc This is a label for the diagram. $$w --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . 5 7 . X X X . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . 3 X 6 O . O O . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . 2 1 4 O . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c This is a label for the diagram. $$ -------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . . . X 3 . . . . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . , . O O 2 X X X . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . O X X O . O O . . | $$ | . . . X . . . . . . X . X O . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

White attach and cross cut on the bottom is really good for breaking into a moyo. So black may not choose to play like this.

My only other remark is to play Q10 instead of R10 to fight blacks moyo. It makes reducing black easier. You played at "a" but I like Q10 better.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c This is a label for the diagram. $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . | $$ | . X X X . X . . . . . O . X . X X . . | $$ | . X O O O . . . . , . . . . O O O . . | $$ | . O O . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . 2 . W a . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . 4 . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . 1 . . . | $$ | . . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . | $$ | . . O , . X . . . , . . . . X X X . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . X . O . O O . . | $$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . O . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c This is a label for the diagram. $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . | $$ | . X X X . X . . . . . O . X . X X . . | $$ | . X O O O . . . . , . . . . O O O . . | $$ | . O O . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . 4 . W . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . 6 . . . . 2 . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . 3 1 . . | $$ | . . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . | $$ | . . O , . X . . . , . . . . X X X . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . X . O . O O . . | $$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . O . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

White should strive to stay ahead of black to limit his growth.

Joaz Banbeck · #4

Up to move 25 your game looks good for an 8 kyu. Then you let him push you around.
His hane is way too thin. When you play low in response, he gets more than he ought to.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc Too submissive. $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X X X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X O O O . . . . , . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 1 X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O , . X . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

If you cut, he is too thin to fight, especially when you have the ladder breaker at Q16.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc Black has too many cutting points $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X X X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X O O O . . . . , . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 2 X 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O X 4 C . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O 3 5 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O , . X C . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Hades12 · #5

Joaz is right concerning the cut. That is a must play at higher ranks. I don't think it was the losing move, but I think you should definitely start looking at these cuts, asking yourself if your opponent is strong enough to fight.

Joaz Banbeck · #6

At move 28, you are worried about black taking a moyo.
There are two reasons that you should not worry yet.
1) His 'wall' is still thin
2) He cannot seal the moyo in one move.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc Premature, IMHO $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X X X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X O O O . . . . , . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O , . X . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . 1 . . . . . | $$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

The right side is actually bigger.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc Position at move 28 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X X X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X O O O . . . . , . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O , . X . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc If he pincers, you suppress the impending moyo. $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X X X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X O O O . . . . , . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . . . | $$ | . . O , . X . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

If he plays safe, you shoulder hit:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X X X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X O O O . . . . , . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O , . X . . . , . . 3 . . X . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . 2 . . . . . | $$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Joaz Banbeck · #7

From about move 120 through 144, W at S8 was huge.

Also, how would you have handled it if B had played R1 on move 225? ( If at move 214 you had played the 1-point gote at T4 instead of the 1-point gote at E11, this question would have never arisen. )

EdLee · #8

Hi Noles,

Bill Spight · #9

A few top of the head comments.

00Noles wrote:

If in my comments a move is considered "also fine" it means that it is among the preferred 4-5 choices of the bot, which makes it ok for me.. i guess

IMO, there is no need for an 8 kyu to worry too much about relatively small mistakes. But I doubt if the rank of the move by the bot is the best way identify them. My guess is that within 6% of Leela's best winrate estimate is OK. (OC, those small errors can add up.

)

Bots are not fond of pincers. AlphaGoTeach ( https://alphagoteach.deepmind.com ) recommends approaching the bottom left corner.

:w14:

B-14 used to be considered a beginner's move, but the bots prefer it.

:w16:

The low approach used to be considered old-fashioned, but the bots usually prefer it.

:w22:

The high extension to A makes good balance with the low pincer in the top left. This is a good lesson. In this case, OK is not really good enough.

:w24:

The jump to D-07 is standard.

:w26:

I think Joaz is right about the cut.

:w28:

The trouble is, Black's pincer at M-03 is a good play. Better to play N-03 or oven M-03 yourself.

:w30:

Bad plan. Greedy. Jump to O-05 is better.

:w36:

Passe, I think. Leela may disagree. How about something around R-13?

:w38:

Leela is right, because of Black's strength in the top left. This is an important lesson.

:w40:

I would have made the same play as you, but I defer to Leela's judgement. (Not Leela 11, but Leela Zero.)

:w46:

Looks fine to me.

Only a 9% loss? Leela is right, OC. Another important lesson.

:w50:

Leela is right, OC. A big hint that the cut is not so good is that it makes bad shape (empty triangle). Your play on the bottom is heavy. You should expect to sacrifice the L-04 stone.

:w56:

Not a good plan. If White pushes to E-05 and cuts, Black can happily sacrifice three stones for an attack against White.

:w60:

Invites the capping play. For running out, H-08 feels better to me. Leela may disagree.

:w62:

You are not attacking, you are under attack. Besides, E-O5 is the play to cut.

:w70:

I still like H-08.

White 106: Not too late to take the J-11 stone, eh? What does Leela say?

Joaz Banbeck · **#10**

You can be thankful that your opponent missed a tesuji at move 223.

You guys played this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$ Too easy for white $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . X . . . . X . . O X . . . . . | $$ | . X X X O X X X X . O O O X X X X X . | $$ | X X O O O O X O X , X O . O O O O X . | $$ | X O O . . . O O X X . X O . . . . O . | $$ | O O X . . . . O O X X X O . O . . O . | $$ | . . . . . . . O X . . X O . O X X . . | $$ | . . O . O O . O X X X X O X X O O X . | $$ | . . . . O X O O X O O O X X O . . O . | $$ | . . . O O X O X O O O X . X O O O O . | $$ | . . O X X X X X O X X X X X X O O . O | $$ | . . O O X . O X O O O X . . . X X O O | $$ | . . O X X X X O . . O X O X . . X X X | $$ | . 2 . O X O X O . . O O X . . O O O X | $$ | . . . O X O O . O . . . X X . . X X X | $$ | O O O X X X O . O O O O X O X X X O . | $$ | X 1 O X X O X O O X X X X O X O O O . | $$ | . X X . X . X X X . . . X O O O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

But he could have played this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$ Liberty-gaining tesuji $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . X . X . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . X . . . . X . . O X . . . . . | $$ | . X X X O X X X X . O O O X X X X X . | $$ | X X O O O O X O X , X O . O O O O X . | $$ | X O O . . . O O X X . X O . . . . O . | $$ | O O X . . . . O O X X X O . O . . O . | $$ | . . . . . . . O X . . X O . O X X . . | $$ | . . O . O O . O X X X X O X X O O X . | $$ | . . . . O X O O X O O O X X O . . O . | $$ | . . . O O X O X O O O X . X O O O O . | $$ | . . O X X X X X O X X X X X X O O . O | $$ | . . O O X . O X O O O X . . . X X O O | $$ | . 4 O X X X X O . . O X O X . . X X X | $$ | . 3 1 O X O X O . . O O X . . O O O X | $$ | 5 . 2 O X O O . O . . . X X . . X X X | $$ | O O O X X X O . O O O O X O X X X O . | $$ | X . O X X O X O O X X X X O X O O O . | $$ | . X X . X . X X X . . . X O O O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Black looks like he is behind, two liberties to three. But white now needs an approach move.

If you learn nothing else from this thread, :b5:

is a nice tesuji to have in your arsenal. :twisted:

jlt · **#11**

LeelaZero157 likes :w36:

,

and

102. The clamp works for Black if he can fight the ko:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B $$ ----------------+ $$ . . . . . . . . | $$ . . X . . . . . | $$ O . X . X X X . | $$ . . . O O O X . | $$ . O . . 6 3 O 2 | $$ . . . O 5 4 1 . | $$ . . . O X X 7 . | $$ . . X X O O X . | $$ . . X O . . O . | $$ . . X O , O . . |[/go]

Other remark: speaking about modern robotic josekis, here is LZ's preference on the bottom right:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W $$ --------------------+ $$ . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . | $$ , . . . . . O . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . 5 . . | $$ , . . . . . , . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . | $$ , . . . 2 X X X . . | $$ . 4 X . O . O O . . | $$ . . 3 1 . . . . . . | $$ . . . . . . . . . . | $$ --------------------+[/go]

00Noles · **#12**

Thank you all for your kind advice so far! I see there is much for me to gain from this game

@Hades & @EdLee

@Joaz

@jlt

@Bill

EdLee · **#13**

Hi Noles,

00Noles · **#14**

@EdLee

I see, thank you!

Your point about the bottom position together with the general critic by Bill and Joaz regarding :w26:

had me motivated to be a little more vigilant about those possibilities to cross cut my opponent in recent games (only three since then, but well..) and i think it really helped to not get behind in those positions too easily and/or reflect some pressure back to the opponent. Unfortunately i have no game record available (unless someone nows how to access games played in tygems iOS version :scratch:

)

EdLee · **#15**

Quote:

... together with the general critic ... regarding :w26:

Maybe tracing back to :w24:

: Bill suggests D7; whereas C7 jumped out to me -- notice either D7 or C7 gets ahead of B, while the game move D6 pushes B from behind; seems to me this is more fundamental ( foundational ) than :w26:

( haven't checked the bot's preference for :w24:

yet; leave it to you.

)

00Noles · **#16**

@EdLee

Leela actually likes D-6 best with 51,47% winrate for White, making it the only local move it likes better then O-3 (51,23%). The value for D-7 is 51,19% and for C-7 it is 48,58%.
This is Leela.11 though.. i always failed to setup GRP with LeelaZero probably :sad:

I think initially i was expecting something like this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$ may also be on the marked spots $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X X X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X O O O . . . . , . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 2 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O , . X . . . , . C C C . X . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . C C 4 . . . . . | $$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

It seems to me, that B's possible follow ups on the left are not too dangerous for W, or am i mistaken :scratch:

Regarding C-7 VS D-7 i like D-7 a little more. Maybe it's just because C-7, C-9 and C-12 all being low looks a bit odd, i don't know. Nevertheless i get what you mean by jumping ahead of B ;-)

Hades12 · **#17**

00Noles wrote:

@EdLee

Leela actually likes D-6 best with 51,47% winrate for White, making it the only local move it likes better then O-3 (51,23%). The value for D-7 is 51,19% and for C-7 it is 48,58%.
This is Leela.11 though.. i always failed to setup GRP with LeelaZero probably :sad:

I think initially i was expecting something like this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$ may also be on the marked spots $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X X X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X O O O . . . . , . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 2 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O , . X . . . , . C C C . X . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . C C 4 . . . . . | $$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

It seems to me, that B's possible follow ups on the left are not too dangerous for W, or am i mistaken :scratch:

Regarding C-7 VS D-7 i like D-7 a little more. Maybe it's just because C-7, C-9 and C-12 all being low looks a bit odd, i don't know. Nevertheless i get what you mean by jumping ahead of B ;-)

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$ may also be on the marked spots $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X X X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X O O O . . . . , . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . O C . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . B . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 2 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O , . X . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . 4 . . . . . | $$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

The marked black stone is pretty severe. As is the attachment on top. I would play the attachment on top, as it invokes a lot of aji. But attaching inside is probably more simple

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$ may also be on the marked spots $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X X X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X O O O . . . . , . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 8 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 7 6 , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . 5 O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 1 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 3 4 X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 9 . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O , . X . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . | $$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

It looks like white can resist. But black will get something.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$ may also be on the marked spots $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X X X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X O O O . . . . , . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X O , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X b O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . a O , . X . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . | $$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

Seems like 'a' and 'b' are miai for black. If white wants to play 'b' then it affords black to take the corner. If white plays 'a' then black can try to live inside. Might not work. Either way, black doesn't do this immediately. He has to time it properly. This is a later middle game sequence. I'm sure Uber or Ed or Bill can expand on this.

EdLee · **#18**

Hi Noles,

This is a good example of when I reply, "The bot is a very powerful tool; but play what you understand and can handle."

Re: Hades' variation:

Quote:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$ $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X X X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X O O O . . . . , . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . O C . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . B . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 2 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O , . X . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . 4 . . . . . | $$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

Quote:

Nevertheless i get what you mean by jumping ahead of B ;-)

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X X X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X O O O . . . . , . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O , . X . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

Quote:

C7, C9 and C12 all being low looks a bit odd

C12, C9, and C7 all on the 3rd line doesn't bother me on this board, but C9 and C7 are too close and over-concentrated ( re: Bill's D7 ); I would've played C9 at C8 originally ( the bot liked D8 for :w22:

as you found out ). I'm eyeing the aji of B's shape around E5.

00Noles · **#19**

Regarding C-8 i think i would probably have replied with the diagonal at C-7, but i guess the dropdown by B is not very enjoyable for W..

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$ $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X X X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X O O O . . . . , . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 2 . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O , . X . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . | $$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

If B attaches on top, W extending to C-10 might not be a good idea, as the dropdown seems even stronger now :scratch:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$ $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X X X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X O O O . . . . , . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 2 , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . O 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . C 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 4 . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O , . X . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . | $$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

Extending back seems quite ok to me tough. If B hanes, W counterhanes. There might be trouble with the aji from the top left corner joseki, but i can not find a sequence right now that really threatens W's stones, but that might just be my insufficiency :lol:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$ $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X X X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X O O O . . . . , . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . B . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 4 3 , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . O 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O , . X . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . | $$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

Or would you on a more general note say, that all that trouble on the left side is in fact not worth W's stone on the bottom side?

Joaz Banbeck · **#20**

00Noles wrote:

...

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$ $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X X X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X O O O . . . . , . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . B . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 4 3 , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . O 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O , . X . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . | $$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

...

As I noted earlier, you are being too submissive. If black over-extends, you cut him off:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$ $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X X X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X O O O . . . . , . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . B . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 3 4 . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . O 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O , . X . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . | $$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

Or this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$ $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X X X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X O O O . . . . , . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . B . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 3 , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . O 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 2 4 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O , . X . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . | $$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

Or this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$ You have the ladder breaker $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X X X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X O O O . . . . , . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . O O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . B . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 3 , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . O 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O X 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O 4 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O , . X . . . , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . O . . . . . | $$ | . . X . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]

Review Request 8k-9k

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