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| Pushing from behind question http://www.lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=2406 |
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| Author: | jts [ Sat Nov 20, 2010 7:34 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Pushing from behind question |
Hello everyone, I have a quick question about this game. At move 62 I made an intentional elephant jump with the idea that I would push from behind when he took the eye. And so we pushed and pushed and pushed through to move 74. I think that, even though I violated two rules of thumb, this exchange benefited me, but I wanted to hear a stronger player's thoughts. Thanks! [deleted] |
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| Author: | Joaz Banbeck [ Sat Nov 20, 2010 8:03 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Pushing from behind question |
Well, yes, you did violate two principles, and, yes, your subsequent wall was worth more than your opponent's wall. But this is only because he did not take advantage of his lead. At move 67 he should have haned at K12. If he had done that, it probably would have turned out badly for you. In your honor, I propose a new proverb: "Don't push from behind, unless your opponent is asleep at the wheel. Then it's ok"  Seriously, at move 62 you should have crushed him with C8. |
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| Author: | Harleqin [ Sun Nov 21, 2010 4:36 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Pushing from behind question |
Yes, each exchange in that series was good for Black, because White was running on neutral points with stones that were ultimately strong. White simply should not have answered at all and instead played on the left side. This holds for each of those steps. |
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| Author: | jts [ Sun Nov 21, 2010 2:54 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Pushing from behind question |
Thanks, guys. I'm going to split the difference between your advice and take away that the first two pushes were bad, but that afterwards each push helped me - although not as much as a play on the left. C8 looked scary at the time. I just looked at some continuations on Josekipedia, and I'm trying to work out how B can benefit if W deviates from those continuations. (Those deviations look dicy for B, imo!) Is C8 always a crushing continuation when white goes low approach -> star point, or is there some way to use C13 that makes it particularly good in this game? (I can see that since on one of the continuations C13 would be my final move, that would make the whole sequence my sente; perhaps that's crushing enough.) |
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| Author: | gaius [ Sun Nov 21, 2010 3:23 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Pushing from behind question |
Moves 62 and onwards are interesting thinking! But unfortunately, at that point in the game, the center was not so important because both of your groups as well as white's group are strong already. Both Q2 and B4 are huge points, and both are much bigger than the elephant jump you played. |
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| Author: | cdybeijing [ Mon Nov 22, 2010 12:35 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Pushing from behind question |
Move 62 is not an elephant jump; I believe the English name for the shape is horse's head, but I could be wrong. |
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| Author: | Joaz Banbeck [ Mon Nov 22, 2010 12:54 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Pushing from behind question |
cdybeijing wrote: Move 62 is not an elephant jump; I believe the English name for the shape is horse's head, but I could be wrong. I have heard both this: ...and this: ...referred to as a horse's head, the former more often than the latter. But...I believe that he was talking about the shape between L14 and N12. |
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| Author: | jts [ Mon Nov 22, 2010 1:47 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Pushing from behind question |
Yes, the reason I was feeling clever was that it's a dog head connection in one direction, and the weakness of the elephant jump in the other direction actually (I thought) had potential for me. (Maybe, if I were to have moved there at all, the horse head/keima would be better. But then again, why was N12 there at all? That's the really dubious move, I guess.) But I've been left with a bigger question which falls under "what's the point of thickness?" After moves 14-24 I had convinced myself that I was in a good position; even though the pincer stones died horribly and white had a huge side, it seemed to me like there should be some way to threaten to take too much of the center and force W into over-aggressive play. But if the center isn't the "hot" area of the board, does that mean 14-24 didn't benefit me? |
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| Author: | Bill Spight [ Mon Nov 22, 2010 3:44 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Pushing from behind question |
jts wrote: But I've been left with a bigger question which falls under "what's the point of thickness?" I have a thick style.  Quote: After moves 14-24 I had convinced myself that I was in a good position; even though the pincer stones died horribly and white had a huge side, IMO, White came out better. You said it yourself, your pincer stones died horribly. Quote: it seemed to me like there should be some way to threaten to take too much of the center and force W into over-aggressive play. An elephant jump is not big enough to do that, as a rule. White erred by giving you a big wall for some dame. The best way to use your center thickness at that point may have been to invade the left side, taking territory but giving White thickness facing the center. Then your existing thickness would serve to negate that thickness.
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| Author: | jts [ Mon Nov 22, 2010 5:48 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Pushing from behind question |
Thanks to everyone for the advice. Lots to think over. |
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