Life In 19x19 :: playing fast is wrong

And you can't really blame your results on time since your opponent played even faster.

My suggestion would be to slow down and not get ahead of yourself--and not only while playing your games. If you believe you are 7 kyu, and you take 3 stones playing a 7 kyu, you will say to yourself "I should crush this opponent." It is a mistake to feel stronger than your opponent and to disrespect his or her moves. Approach each game with some humility--do not fear your opponents, but do not assume they should fear you.

Second, you do not always need to kill a bad invasion to punish it--in fact, it is often not possible to kill. This is actually related to the first suggestion above--if you always assume something should die, you may try too hard to kill it. This often results in disaster.

judicata wrote:

Those are vary big assumptions based on one of my fast games and the only reason I took 3 stones was to get him to accept the game. I play 7 kyus when my rating is regular in even games and crush them. yes humility is important, but you can't base assumptions on our ranks based a game that was essentially blitz. I only said it was a wrong invasion and did not assume that I could kill but attacked it heavily.

judicata wrote:

The problem is and will be for a while(So I have been told from stronger players who watch me play and review my games) I have a problem of playing instinct and very fast when there is no need to on kgs. My friends tell me the only thing keeping me from zooming through the sdk is playing more meaningful games. My last 15+ games on kgs have been meaningless I have either played to fast or didn't stop and think. It haunts me because the next day after a game I will be somewhere thinking about a position from it in which I didn't think, and then I will read out the correct solution right then. This is why I don't play online at all and why my rank stays between 10-7 kyu. I hate playing fast and from the adrenaline rush I get from playing ranked games, and I haven't found away to break because now it's more than a habit, playing fast when there is no need to is now close to an addiction.

I hate playing fast and from the adrenaline rush I get from playing ranked games, and I haven't found away to break because now it's more than a habit, playing fast when there is no need to is now close to an addiction.

balmung wrote:

Then don't play ranked games for a couple months; just play free games.

If you're playing too fast, move the mouse to the side of the screen, sit on your hands, and read out what's going to happen. That, in itself, will force you to think a little bit. Then you can start setting yourself goals, like "I want to spend 25 minutes on the first 100 moves."

Author:	balmung [ Thu Feb 17, 2011 7:50 am ]
Post subject:	playing fast is wrong
I played a 7 kyu twice yesterday and I lost to him after he made a wrong invasion, and the second game he did it again and he made a wrong that I slowed down and killed like I should of the first time, but the games were horrible I played the games as if they were blitz and I should have been punished for playing so fast. Move 58 logically should be at o5 and his stones die, and move 66 N2 helps for fight I should not ever play as fast as I did.

Author:	Li Kao [ Thu Feb 17, 2011 7:52 am ]
Post subject:	Re: playing fast is wrong
Playing fast in a serious game with slow time limits is wrong. But playing quickly in a casual online game doesn't matter much and can be fun.

Author:	judicata [ Thu Feb 17, 2011 9:47 am ]
Post subject:	Re: playing fast is wrong
My suggestion would be to slow down and not get ahead of yourself--and not only while playing your games. If you believe you are 7 kyu, and you take 3 stones playing a 7 kyu, you will say to yourself "I should crush this opponent." It is a mistake to feel stronger than your opponent and to disrespect his or her moves. Approach each game with some humility--do not fear your opponents, but do not assume they should fear you. Second, you do not always need to kill a bad invasion to punish it--in fact, it is often not possible to kill. This is actually related to the first suggestion above--if you always assume something should die, you may try too hard to kill it. This often results in disaster.

Author:	topazg [ Thu Feb 17, 2011 9:57 am ]
Post subject:	Re: playing fast is wrong
judicata wrote: My suggestion would be to slow down and not get ahead of yourself--and not only while playing your games. If you believe you are 7 kyu, and you take 3 stones playing a 7 kyu, you will say to yourself "I should crush this opponent." It is a mistake to feel stronger than your opponent and to disrespect his or her moves. Approach each game with some humility--do not fear your opponents, but do not assume they should fear you. I agree with this. In fact, I would go so far as to start calling yourself a 10 kyu on the cusp of 9 kyu. Until your performance demonstrates otherwise, your frustration is going to be built up constantly by the belief you are underperforming, when the reality is you are probably just not as strong as you like to think you are. Not meaning to be harsh, but I genuinely think that your belief in your strength is the thing holding you back the most.

Author:	Li Kao [ Thu Feb 17, 2011 10:04 am ]
Post subject:	Re: playing fast is wrong
And you can't really blame your results on time since your opponent played even faster.

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Author:	yoyoma [ Thu Feb 17, 2011 10:26 am ]
Post subject:	Re: playing fast is wrong
balmung: Play faster in your Malkovich game please.

Author:	jts [ Thu Feb 17, 2011 10:39 am ]
Post subject:	Re: playing fast is wrong
Li Kao wrote: And you can't really blame your results on time since your opponent played even faster. I get what you're saying, but I think he can blame time. I play lots of games where I play slowly, while my opponent has 15 minutes main time left at the end. Some people are good at fuseki, some people are good at the middle game, some people are good at yose, and some people are good at using their time effectively. Just because his opponents play fast doesn't mean he couldn't improve hugely by playing patiently.

Author:	balmung [ Thu Feb 17, 2011 10:40 am ]
Post subject:	Re: playing fast is wrong
judicata wrote: My suggestion would be to slow down and not get ahead of yourself--and not only while playing your games. If you believe you are 7 kyu, and you take 3 stones playing a 7 kyu, you will say to yourself "I should crush this opponent." It is a mistake to feel stronger than your opponent and to disrespect his or her moves. Approach each game with some humility--do not fear your opponents, but do not assume they should fear you. Second, you do not always need to kill a bad invasion to punish it--in fact, it is often not possible to kill. This is actually related to the first suggestion above--if you always assume something should die, you may try too hard to kill it. This often results in disaster. Those are vary big assumptions based on one of my fast games and the only reason I took 3 stones was to get him to accept the game. I play 7 kyus when my rating is regular in even games and crush them. yes humility is important, but you can't base assumptions on our ranks based a game that was essentially blitz. I only said it was a wrong invasion and did not assume that I could kill but attacked it heavily.

Author:	daniel_the_smith [ Thu Feb 17, 2011 10:48 am ]
Post subject:	Re: playing fast is wrong
I agree the invasion was bad. But you attacked to kill (and were justly punished for it)-- you should have attacked to make a large moyo on the left side of the board. Your opponent has to make an incredibly serious mistake in order to have something die. You should think long and hard before actually attempting to kill something. You need to be 99% sure you can kill it, or you need to have a plan to still win if you fail to kill it. (When you are 99% sure you can kill a group, make a note of it. If you kill fewer than 99/100 such groups, you are miscalibrated and you should adjust your confidence levels accordingly.) In this case, when you see that invasion you should think "yay stones to chase", not "KILL KILL KILL". (EDIT: move 56 is the mistake, should be at o5. That wall was super strong, you should not have to make any concessions at all.)

Author:	jts [ Thu Feb 17, 2011 10:57 am ]
Post subject:	Re: playing fast is wrong
balmung wrote: judicata wrote: My suggestion would be to slow down and not get ahead of yourself--and not only while playing your games. If you believe you are 7 kyu, and you take 3 stones playing a 7 kyu, you will say to yourself "I should crush this opponent." It is a mistake to feel stronger than your opponent and to disrespect his or her moves. Approach each game with some humility--do not fear your opponents, but do not assume they should fear you. Second, you do not always need to kill a bad invasion to punish it--in fact, it is often not possible to kill. This is actually related to the first suggestion above--if you always assume something should die, you may try too hard to kill it. This often results in disaster. Those are vary big assumptions based on one of my fast games and the only reason I took 3 stones was to get him to accept the game. I play 7 kyus when my rating is regular in even games and crush them. yes humility is important, but you can't base assumptions on our ranks based a game that was essentially blitz. I only said it was a wrong invasion and did not assume that I could kill but attacked it heavily. Balmung - it's very easy to look up your account on KGS and see all the games you've played on it. People are trying to help you, and this is exactly what they're talking about. You're focusing more on a number than on playing go.

Author:	judicata [ Thu Feb 17, 2011 11:33 am ]
Post subject:	Re: playing fast is wrong
balmung wrote: judicata wrote: My suggestion would be to slow down and not get ahead of yourself--and not only while playing your games. If you believe you are 7 kyu, and you take 3 stones playing a 7 kyu, you will say to yourself "I should crush this opponent." It is a mistake to feel stronger than your opponent and to disrespect his or her moves. Approach each game with some humility--do not fear your opponents, but do not assume they should fear you. Second, you do not always need to kill a bad invasion to punish it--in fact, it is often not possible to kill. This is actually related to the first suggestion above--if you always assume something should die, you may try too hard to kill it. This often results in disaster. Those are vary big assumptions based on one of my fast games and the only reason I took 3 stones was to get him to accept the game. I play 7 kyus when my rating is regular in even games and crush them. yes humility is important, but you can't base assumptions on our ranks based a game that was essentially blitz. I only said it was a wrong invasion and did not assume that I could kill but attacked it heavily. Take it easy. I sincerely apologize if I offended you. I'm merely trying to help--I don't mean to offend you. Please read my post again--I did not really make any assumptions. I said that if you believe you are much stronger than your opponent (or, in this case, that you should win because the handicap is too high), your playing will deteriorate. I did not say or imply that you were weaker than 7 kyu. When you say "the only reason I took 3 stones was to get him to accept the game," and that you "crush" 7 kyus when your "rating is regular" (I'm not sure what that means), you show the opposite of humility and illustrate exactly what I was warning against. Although you say you "did not assume that" you could kill, you said in your original post that you "killed it like you should have the first time." It sounded to me as if you assumed you could kill the invasion--it is entirely possible I misunderstood you. Forget about your rank. Assume that you have a 50/50 chance at beating an opponent with whatever handicap you receive in a game. After all, if you are under-ranked, your opponent could be under-ranked too. The attitude you display will be a continuing source of frustration for you.

Author:	Joaz Banbeck [ Thu Feb 17, 2011 11:42 am ]
Post subject:	Re: playing fast is wrong
Game #1: 10: This is aji keshi. It might be useful if you follow it up with Q14 to make a wall. But left as it is, it just forces him to become stronger and gains nothing for you. 20-24: Good. 26: He has a weak stone here that you can attack. But 1-on-1 contact plays are generally defender's moves. This encourages him to make his weak stone stronger. You would do better with O4. 42: Nice tenuki! ( J4 might be a tad better, but yours is still a fine move ) 46: This is the wrong direction. You have a strong group on the right, and lone stone at K4. But you add to your already strong group, and thereby force him to go toward your weaker group. A better way would be to play K6 or L6 or l5, strengthening the weaker of your two groups and pushing him toward the stronger one. 52: Again, you would do better to push him toward your strong group. Play L8. In summary, I would not say that you lost because you played too fast. I think that you lost bcause you let him get sure territory and you gambled on getting your profit from a big wall, but did not use the wall correctly. Up to move 44 you have a good game, maybe you are ahead. The wall was probably a good choice. Just remember to push the victims toward your strength, not away from it.

Author:	Joaz Banbeck [ Thu Feb 17, 2011 12:33 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: playing fast is wrong
Game #2 8: Again, contact moves encourage the defender to become stronger ( and locally you are the attacker because you are one move up ). Your choice of R17 last game was better. 18: Hane. Your previous move protects the cut. 20: Too loose. Leaves R6 open. If you want to play that side, R7 would be better. 24: Protect the cutting point with Q8 or Q7. 26: O4. 48: K3. Push him toward your strength! 58: Think big move. Try F3 68: Good idea! Just do it on a larger scale with E16. He defends, then you play G15. 76: What, exactly, is he threatening? You are strong here. Tenuki. 78-104: A nice sequence by you, punishing him for a greedy invasion. 106: D6. Let him capture if he wants. It won't be an eye. It won't do anything for him. Then you follow up with the solid C6, and he is doomed. 180: This loses sente for a pitance. You probably have a won game here because of the capture on the left. Just keep the pressure on, taking the big yose points in sente: T11, M18, E2, E17, etc. 194: Ok, yeah, you are playing too fast. 232: T11 Again, you played a better fuseki than he, building strength which you used in the mid-game. The difference here is move 78. You played it the right way this time. You have a strong group to the south, and 78 pushes him toward it. That enabled you to get a big kill, and you won the game because of it.

Author:	balmung [ Thu Feb 17, 2011 1:03 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: playing fast is wrong
The problem is and will be for a while(So I have been told from stronger players who watch me play and review my games) I have a problem of playing instinct and very fast when there is no need to on kgs. My friends tell me the only thing keeping me from zooming through the sdk is playing more meaningful games. My last 15+ games on kgs have been meaningless I have either played to fast or didn't stop and think. It haunts me because the next day after a game I will be somewhere thinking about a position from it in which I didn't think, and then I will read out the correct solution right then. This is why I don't play online at all and why my rank stays between 10-7 kyu. I hate playing fast and from the adrenaline rush I get from playing ranked games, and I haven't found away to break because now it's more than a habit, playing fast when there is no need to is now close to an addiction.

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Author:	judicata [ Thu Feb 17, 2011 1:08 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: playing fast is wrong
balmung wrote: The problem is and will be for a while(So I have been told from stronger players who watch me play and review my games) I have a problem of playing instinct and very fast when there is no need to on kgs. My friends tell me the only thing keeping me from zooming through the sdk is playing more meaningful games. My last 15+ games on kgs have been meaningless I have either played to fast or didn't stop and think. It haunts me because the next day after a game I will be somewhere thinking about a position from it in which I didn't think, and then I will read out the correct solution right then. This is why I don't play online at all and why my rank stays between 10-7 kyu. I hate playing fast and from the adrenaline rush I get from playing ranked games, and I haven't found away to break because now it's more than a habit, playing fast when there is no need to is now close to an addiction. I completely understand - this has happened to me too. One piece of advice I've found helpful: for every single turn (no exceptions) consider at least two moves. I think Yang Yilun said this. It looks like part of your frustration stems from your focus on what happens to your rank. Joaz - I don't think we mean the same thing when we say humility. You should, of course, play boldly when warranted and attack where you are strong.

Author:	jts [ Thu Feb 17, 2011 1:28 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: playing fast is wrong
balmung wrote: I hate playing fast and from the adrenaline rush I get from playing ranked games, and I haven't found away to break because now it's more than a habit, playing fast when there is no need to is now close to an addiction. Then don't play ranked games for a couple months; just play free games. If you're playing too fast, move the mouse to the side of the screen, sit on your hands, and read out what's going to happen. That, in itself, will force you to think a little bit. Then you can start setting yourself goals, like "I want to spend 25 minutes on the first 100 moves."

Author:	balmung [ Thu Feb 17, 2011 2:13 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: playing fast is wrong
jts wrote: balmung wrote: I hate playing fast and from the adrenaline rush I get from playing ranked games, and I haven't found away to break because now it's more than a habit, playing fast when there is no need to is now close to an addiction. Then don't play ranked games for a couple months; just play free games. If you're playing too fast, move the mouse to the side of the screen, sit on your hands, and read out what's going to happen. That, in itself, will force you to think a little bit. Then you can start setting yourself goals, like "I want to spend 25 minutes on the first 100 moves." I played another game today not as fast, but there were a few parts were I obviously wasn't thinking just clicking. I felt bad after I won because I didn't play my best game, and my opponent was peeved because I didn't let him undo a misclick, but I don't do undos or ask for undos. Your probably right.

Author:	jts [ Thu Feb 17, 2011 2:26 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: playing fast is wrong
Keep slowing down.

Author:	Shaddy [ Thu Feb 17, 2011 3:20 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: playing fast is wrong
The enemy here, I believe, is not fast play (you can read while playing fast, it's just that there's more chances of missing stuff), but failure to read. For every move, read out what will happen, and evaluate at each step - questions like is this sente or gote? is it really? if I sacrifice, can I gain? what other moves could my opponent play? if it's gote, where should I tenuki to? can I live there if I invade? where are my forcing moves? if my opponent doesn't respond to one of them, how do I punish? Don't stop reading during your opponent's moves, either. Just keep reading.