Life In 19x19 :: Endgame problem from a game

I don't understand your :b4:

. First, in your variation, white has exactly one chance to exchange :w7:

with good timing, and win another point. Right?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . O X X . . X O O X . . 6 . . . . | $$ | . . . O O X . . X O X 2 1 5 O X 8 . . | $$ | . . . O X X X X X O X X X O 4 X O . . | $$ | . . . O X O O . . O O X O 3 X X . X X | $$ | . . . O O O X X X O X X X X O 7 X X O | $$ | . . . O . O . . . O X O . X O O X O O | $$ | . . O X . O X X X O O . . X O . O O . | $$ | . . O X X O X . X X O O O O . O O O X | $$ | . . O O X X X X X O O X X O O O X . X | $$ | . . X , O X . X . O . O X X X X X X . | $$ | . O . . . O O X . . O X . . X O X O O | $$ | . O X . . . O X O O X X . X O O O . O | $$ | . . X . X . O X O X O . X X X O . O O | $$ | . X . . . . O . X X O . . X O O O O X | $$ | . O O . . O O X X O X X X O O O X X X | $$ | . . . , O X X X . , O . . X O X . . . | $$ | . . . O . O X O O . X . . . X . X . . | $$ | . . . . . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . O O X . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

If black throws in first, white does not have that chance. That is to say, it would still be sente, but because white is now in atari at every step, black can just capture white rather than connecting the corner. Also, in this variation, the semedori looks to be at least one point worse for white, and he cannot make the point at 'a' in sente.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc @ $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . O X X . . X O O X 8 5 . . . . . | $$ | . . . O O X . . X O X 2 1 4 O X . . . | $$ | . . . O X X X X X O X X X O 6 X O . . | $$ | . . . O X O O . . O O X O 3 X X . X X | $$ | . . . O O O X X X O X X X X O . X X O | $$ | . . . O . O . . . O X O . X O O X O O | $$ | . . O X . O X X X O O a . X O . O O . | $$ | . . O X X O X . X X O O O O . O O O X | $$ | . . O O X X X X X O O X X O O O X . X | $$ | . . X , O X . X . O . O X X X X X X . | $$ | . O . . . O O X . . O X . . X O X O O | $$ | . O X . . . O X O O X X . X O O O . O | $$ | . . X . X . O X O X O . X X X O . O O | $$ | . X . . . . O . X X O . . X O O O O X | $$ | . O O . . O O X X O X X X O O O X X X | $$ | . . . , O X X X . , O . . X O X . . . | $$ | . . . O . O X O O . X . . . X . X . . | $$ | . . . . . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . O O X . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Am I mistaken?

Author:	daniel_the_smith [ Mon Feb 21, 2011 2:20 am ]
Post subject:	Endgame problem from a game
This is a game GoCat and I just finished on OGS. It's white to play. I believe there is only one move that works. Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Wcm210 Position at move 209 $$ --------------------------------------- $$ \| . . . O X X . . X O O X . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . O O X . . X O X . . . O X . . . \| $$ \| . . . O X X X X X O X X X O . X O . . \| $$ \| . . . O X O O . . O O X O . X X . X X \| $$ \| . . . O O O X X X O X X X X O . X X O \| $$ \| . . . O . O . . . O X O . X O O X O O \| $$ \| . . O X . O X X X O O . . X O . O O . \| $$ \| . . O X X O X . X X O O O O . O O O X \| $$ \| . . O O X X X X X O O X X O O O X . X \| $$ \| . . X , O X . X . O . O X X X X X X . \| $$ \| . O . . . O O X . . O X . . X O X O O \| $$ \| . O X . . . O X O O X X . X O O O . O \| $$ \| . . X . X . O X O X O . X X X O . O O \| $$ \| . X . . . . O . X X O . . X O O O O X \| $$ \| . O O . . O O X X O X X X O O O X X X \| $$ \| . . . , O X X X . , O . . X O X . . . \| $$ \| . . . O . O X O O . X . . . X . X . . \| $$ \| . . . . . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . O O X . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ ---------------------------------------[/go] Edit: Black has two prisoners. Everyone seems to have noticed already but I thought I should have mentioned it... Hint: This is the first tedomari (= get the last move) problem I've ever encountered in a real game (and recognized, anyway). I think. I'll post my solution later. Or you can cheat and look at what I played in the game, below... full game:

Author:	Jordus [ Mon Feb 21, 2011 2:36 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Endgame problem from a game
I would have played E13...

Author:	daniel_the_smith [ Mon Feb 21, 2011 3:03 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Endgame problem from a game
@Jordus I was going to refute your move but I just realized it works out to the same score. So my problem is broken. :'(

Author:	HermanHiddema [ Mon Feb 21, 2011 3:12 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Endgame problem from a game
Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Wcm210 @ a, @ b $$ --------------------------------------- $$ \| . . . O X X . . X O O X 0 8 6 . . . . \| $$ \| . . . O O X . . X O X 2 1 5 O X . . . \| $$ \| . . . O X X X X X O X X X O 4 X O . . \| $$ \| . . . O X O O . . O O X O 3 X X . X X \| $$ \| . . . O O O X X X O X X X X O . X X O \| $$ \| . . . O . O . . . O X O 9 X O O X O O \| $$ \| . . O X b O X X X O O . 7 X O . O O . \| $$ \| . . O X X O X . X X O O O O . O O O X \| $$ \| . . O O X X X X X O O X X O O O X . X \| $$ \| . . X , O X . X . O a O X X X X X X . \| $$ \| . O . . . O O X . . O X . . X O X O O \| $$ \| . O X . . . O X O O X X . X O O O . O \| $$ \| . . X . X . O X O X O . X X X O . O O \| $$ \| . X . . . . O . X X O . . X O O O O X \| $$ \| . O O . . O O X X O X X X O O O X X X \| $$ \| . . . , O X X X . , O . . X O X . . . \| $$ \| . . . O . O X O O . X . . . X . X . . \| $$ \| . . . . . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . O O X . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ ---------------------------------------[/go] With and , white creates semedori. Since black is only one liberty ahead, he must capture these stones immediately, making and sente. Then White takes a while black takes b. White wins by 1.5

Author:	Jordus [ Mon Feb 21, 2011 3:16 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Endgame problem from a game
@hermenhiddema Your solution seems to make white lose 3 or more points in the endgame with that sequence in the top...

Life In 19x19 http://www.lifein19x19.com/

Endgame problem from a game http://www.lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=3267	Page 1 of 1

Author:	HermanHiddema [ Mon Feb 21, 2011 3:28 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Endgame problem from a game
Jordus wrote: @hermenhiddema Your solution seems to make white lose 3 or more points in the endgame with that sequence in the top... In my solution, White plays three moves in Black's territory at the top (10, 12 and 14), while black plays five moves there (11,13,15,17,19). So Black plays two more moves there than White. If White plays elsewhere, Black captures (at O16), playing one move inside his own territory. So the net effect of my sequence is that Black plays an extra move inside his own territory and thus White gains one point. Try counting daniel_the_smith's variation vs my variation

Author:	Smochi [ Wed Feb 23, 2011 12:49 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Endgame problem from a game
I believe that black can throw-in at o18, both rescuing a point at the top and preventing white's making a point in the middle from becoming sente.

Author:	gaius [ Wed Feb 23, 2011 3:51 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Endgame problem from a game
@Herman: I don't understand your . First, in your variation, white has exactly one chance to exchange / with good timing, and win another point. Right? Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Wc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ \| . . . O X X . . X O O X . . 6 . . . . \| $$ \| . . . O O X . . X O X 2 1 5 O X 8 . . \| $$ \| . . . O X X X X X O X X X O 4 X O . . \| $$ \| . . . O X O O . . O O X O 3 X X . X X \| $$ \| . . . O O O X X X O X X X X O 7 X X O \| $$ \| . . . O . O . . . O X O . X O O X O O \| $$ \| . . O X . O X X X O O . . X O . O O . \| $$ \| . . O X X O X . X X O O O O . O O O X \| $$ \| . . O O X X X X X O O X X O O O X . X \| $$ \| . . X , O X . X . O . O X X X X X X . \| $$ \| . O . . . O O X . . O X . . X O X O O \| $$ \| . O X . . . O X O O X X . X O O O . O \| $$ \| . . X . X . O X O X O . X X X O . O O \| $$ \| . X . . . . O . X X O . . X O O O O X \| $$ \| . O O . . O O X X O X X X O O O X X X \| $$ \| . . . , O X X X . , O . . X O X . . . \| $$ \| . . . O . O X O O . X . . . X . X . . \| $$ \| . . . . . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . O O X . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ ---------------------------------------[/go] If black throws in first, white does not have that chance. That is to say, it would still be sente, but because white is now in atari at every step, black can just capture white rather than connecting the corner. Also, in this variation, the semedori looks to be at least one point worse for white, and he cannot make the point at 'a' in sente. Click Here To Show Diagram Code [go]$$Wc @ $$ --------------------------------------- $$ \| . . . O X X . . X O O X 8 5 . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . O O X . . X O X 2 1 4 O X . . . \| $$ \| . . . O X X X X X O X X X O 6 X O . . \| $$ \| . . . O X O O . . O O X O 3 X X . X X \| $$ \| . . . O O O X X X O X X X X O . X X O \| $$ \| . . . O . O . . . O X O . X O O X O O \| $$ \| . . O X . O X X X O O a . X O . O O . \| $$ \| . . O X X O X . X X O O O O . O O O X \| $$ \| . . O O X X X X X O O X X O O O X . X \| $$ \| . . X , O X . X . O . O X X X X X X . \| $$ \| . O . . . O O X . . O X . . X O X O O \| $$ \| . O X . . . O X O O X X . X O O O . O \| $$ \| . . X . X . O X O X O . X X X O . O O \| $$ \| . X . . . . O . X X O . . X O O O O X \| $$ \| . O O . . O O X X O X X X O O O X X X \| $$ \| . . . , O X X X . , O . . X O X . . . \| $$ \| . . . O . O X O O . X . . . X . X . . \| $$ \| . . . . . O X X . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ \| . . . . . O O X . . . . . . . . . . . \| $$ ---------------------------------------[/go] Am I mistaken?

Author:	HermanHiddema [ Wed Feb 23, 2011 4:15 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Endgame problem from a game
gaius wrote: @Herman: I don't understand your . First, in your variation, white has exactly one chance to exchange / with good timing, and win another point. Right? If black throws in first, white does not have that chance. That is to say, it would still be sente, but because white is now in atari at every step, black can just capture white rather than connecting the corner. Also, in this variation, the semedori looks to be at least one point worse for white, and he cannot make the point at 'a' in sente. Am I mistaken? Yup, I missed the throw-in, even though it is really obvious

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