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13x13 Game on KGS - 14k vs 18k (2 stone handicap)
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Author:  Simba [ Thu Feb 24, 2011 5:15 pm ]
Post subject:  13x13 Game on KGS - 14k vs 18k (2 stone handicap)
Would appreciate any comments or feedback :) . I'm not quite sure how best to play in handicap games - was my approach okay? He seemed quite focused on the centre - I think this is a mistake since it's more efficient to get the corners/edges first? I know I was playing faster than was required but I was satisfied with the move I chose in every instance. I don't think I could've chosen any hugely different moves had I thought for another 30 seconds per move.



Thanks a lot for any feedback - much appreciated :) .
Author:  Magicwand [ Thu Feb 24, 2011 5:35 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: 13x13 Game on KGS - 14k vs 18k (2 stone handicap)
i will not go over every move as usual.
i will ask you a question.

1. what is your purpose of :b2: ?
2. did you think you have accomplished your purpose?
3. do you not think casual corner move would have been better?

these are the question you should ask yourself.

answer to your question should be:
1. i dont know. may be play somewhere in the middle?
2. my stone is in awkward position and doing prettymuch nothing in the middle.
3. definitly.

sorry about not being nice but being nice doesnt always get better result (getting better at go).
whenever you play make sure to put reason behind the move.
and look for a move that is simpler and accomplish better result.

at your stage i think asking for whole game review is pointless.
at least i gave you something to think about.

that is my advice to you.
Author:  Dusk Eagle [ Thu Feb 24, 2011 5:45 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: 13x13 Game on KGS - 14k vs 18k (2 stone handicap)
There's not much to review in a game you won by 68.5 points. You outperformed him throughout the entire game. One thing that did pain me is your move 57. This is almost never right. You lose out on sente endgame when you play this way.

(Note: I'm using full boards because it's a pain to find smaller ones to copy or to modify the boards. I'm being lazy. Just treat them as local positions only).

Go Diagram
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O 2 |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O O O X 1 |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . X X X X 3 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Bad play by black. White keeps more points than he should.

Go Diagram
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 8 6 |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 5 |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O 3 |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O O O X 7 |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . X X X X 1 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

This is the proper play for both sides. Note that if :w2: above is at :b3:, white has given up sente and it is your move again. This is normally incorrect unless it is almost the end of the game.

Go Diagram
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 8 5 4 |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 O 3 |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . O O O O X 6 |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . X X X X 1 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

In this example white has really screwed up. He must fight a ko in order to prevent black from taking away all the territory along the top. If this sequence is hard for you to visualize, play it out on a real board (or a computer board if that's all you have) and see.

Knowing this endgame will win you many points against people your level, so it's a good thing to learn.
Author:  Simba [ Thu Feb 24, 2011 6:00 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: 13x13 Game on KGS - 14k vs 18k (2 stone handicap)
Magicwand: Thanks, but well, that would be more useful I think to my opponent than me. I played white in this game, not black. I commented in my first post that I thought my opponent's play in the centre was a bit odd, perhaps.

Dusk: Oh, wow, cool, thanks! That's one of the most enlightening things I've been shown. I've wondered several times if there was a way to play that little exchange better than I did. Much appreciated, I'm sure that's going to win me a fair few more points than I have been doing!
Author:  Magicwand [ Thu Feb 24, 2011 7:04 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: 13x13 Game on KGS - 14k vs 18k (2 stone handicap)
Simba wrote:
Magicwand: Thanks, but well, that would be more useful I think to my opponent than me. I played white in this game, not black. I commented in my first post that I thought my opponent's play in the centre was a bit odd, perhaps.

Dusk: Oh, wow, cool, thanks! That's one of the most enlightening things I've been shown. I've wondered several times if there was a way to play that little exchange better than I did. Much appreciated, I'm sure that's going to win me a fair few more points than I have been doing!


sorry about that. next time i will read more carefully before making comment.
there are few other stuffs i have noticed but..i guess that is beyond your level..
for the most part you have basic knowledge of go. next time play with someone stronger so i can comment more.
Author:  Phelan [ Fri Feb 25, 2011 4:03 am ]
Post subject:  Re: 13x13 Game on KGS - 14k vs 18k (2 stone handicap)
Something I think should be noted is that your 3-3 invasion shouldn't have worked, since Black is strong there. I'm not sure what is the exact reply, but I think a 2-4 on the open side kills it.

Other than that, try to post games where you lose, or where the score is close. Those are more instructive to review.
Author:  blade90 [ Fri Feb 25, 2011 7:45 am ]
Post subject:  Re: 13x13 Game on KGS - 14k vs 18k (2 stone handicap)
Just as Phelan said: Your 3-3 invasion shouldn't have worked, that is because of the marked black stones in the diagram below.
Here is how black should have replyed:
Go Diagram
This doesn't work!
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c This doesn't work!
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . O X . . . . W . . |
$$ | . . . O X . X . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . X . . . Y Y Y |
$$ | . O X X . . , . X X X O O |
$$ | . . O X X X X O X O O O . |
$$ | . . O O X O X X O . . . . |
$$ | . O O X O O O O . O . . . |
$$ | . O X X . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | X X . X O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


because:
Go Diagram
If your opponent plays like this...
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c If your opponent plays like this...
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . 5 6 . |
$$ | . . . . O X . . 7 . 3 4 . |
$$ | . . O . O X . . . 1 O . 8 |
$$ | . . . O X . X . . X 2 . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . X . . . X X X |
$$ | . O X X . . , . X X X O O |
$$ | . . O X X X X O X O O O . |
$$ | . . O O X O X X O . . . . |
$$ | . O O X O O O O . O . . . |
$$ | . O X X . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | X X . X O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Go Diagram
... white is dead!
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c ... white is dead!
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . X O . |
$$ | . . . . O X . . X . X O . |
$$ | . . O . O X . . . X O . O |
$$ | . . . O X . X . . X O 1 2 |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . 3 . . |
$$ | . . O X . . X . . . X X X |
$$ | . O X X . . , . X X X O O |
$$ | . . O X X X X O X O O O . |
$$ | . . O O X O X X O . . . . |
$$ | . O O X O O O O . O . . . |
$$ | . O X X . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | X X . X O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


However what about this variation?
Go Diagram
Can white live?
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c Can white live?
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . . . . 2 . . |
$$ | . . O . O X . . . 1 O . . |
$$ | . . . O X . X . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . X . . . X X X |
$$ | . O X X . . , . X X X O O |
$$ | . . O X X X X O X O O O . |
$$ | . . O O X O X X O . . . . |
$$ | . O O X O O O O . O . . . |
$$ | . O X X . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | X X . X O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Anyway at this point an invasion is totally unnessecary, since you are already winning here.
Author:  Simba [ Fri Feb 25, 2011 8:52 am ]
Post subject:  Re: 13x13 Game on KGS - 14k vs 18k (2 stone handicap)
Alright, thanks guys :) .

Blade: No, white can't live in your last diagram. Black should play 3. K12, then if white takes the natural reply 4. L10, he has the basic shape of an L-group in the corner which is dead no matter whose turn it is to play.

Thanks again ^_^ .
Author:  Dusk Eagle [ Fri Feb 25, 2011 8:54 am ]
Post subject:  Re: 13x13 Game on KGS - 14k vs 18k (2 stone handicap)
@Blade90: Nope, white can't live. Thanks to the :bc: stones, :b1: or 'a' both guarantee white's death (both moves can connect back to black's wall). The rest should be pretty straightforward.
Go Diagram
Can white live?
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c Can white live?
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O X . . . . O . a |
$$ | . . O . O X . . . X O . 1 |
$$ | . . . O X . X . . X . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . X . . . X B B |
$$ | . O X X . . , . X X X O O |
$$ | . . O X X X X O X O O O . |
$$ | . . O O X O X X O . . . . |
$$ | . O O X O O O O . O . . . |
$$ | . O X X . O . . . . . . . |
$$ | X X . X O . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X O O . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Simba's method works too. I like how you know the L-group :tmbup: . It's quite useful for speeding up life/death evaluation in the corner.
Author:  mitsun [ Fri Feb 25, 2011 6:46 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: 13x13 Game on KGS - 14k vs 18k (2 stone handicap)
It is good to see you are playing 13x13 go -- I believe this is by far the best way to improve at your level. But as others have noted, you will not gain much by reviewing games where you win easily against a weaker opponent.

The first significant W mistake in this game is move 25. What do you gain by connecting this ko? The stone B is threatening to capture is not important. Instead you should probably play atari at D3 to firmly capture the important B stone and secure the corner.
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