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I lose to another 8k
http://www.lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=4087		 Page 1 of 2
Author:  thequietcenter [ Tue Jun 21, 2011 4:08 am ]
Post subject:  I lose to another 8k
I keep losing to the 8k players since becoming 9k. I lost by 8.5 points here --- a very close game. I think I must've made some crucial mistakes. I'd appreciate a review:
Author:  daal [ Tue Jun 21, 2011 4:56 am ]
Post subject:  Re: I lose to another 8k
Nothing wrong with asking for reviews, but do you read them?
Author:  SoDesuNe [ Tue Jun 21, 2011 7:55 am ]
Post subject:  Re: I lose to another 8k
Your main weakness seems to be of tactical nature (you did not try to exploit your opponent's weak shape but unreasonable played inside his groups to form some sort of nakade). Have you solved the Graded Go Problems For Beginner series yet?
Author:  thequietcenter [ Tue Jun 21, 2011 4:45 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: I lose to another 8k
daal wrote:
Nothing wrong with asking for reviews, but do you read them?


What makes you ask such a preposterous question?
Author:  thequietcenter [ Tue Jun 21, 2011 4:47 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: I lose to another 8k
SoDesuNe wrote:
Have you solved the Graded Go Problems For Beginner series yet?


No, I mainly study the Wilcox material.
Author:  jts [ Tue Jun 21, 2011 9:20 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: I lose to another 8k
thequietcenter wrote:
SoDesuNe wrote:
Have you solved the Graded Go Problems For Beginner series yet?


No, I mainly study the Wilcox material.


Have you ever done a book that was just problems to solve?
Author:  daal [ Tue Jun 21, 2011 10:15 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: I lose to another 8k
thequietcenter wrote:
daal wrote:
Nothing wrong with asking for reviews, but do you read them?


What makes you ask such a preposterous question?


I was waiting for a response to a review I gave you for another game, and then I noticed that you don't seem to respond to anybody. No "interesting," no "ah ha," no "thanks;" just an "I'd appreciate another review." People spend time trying to figure out what you did wrong, yet you don't even acknowledge their work. I was feeling miffed - that's what prompted my preposterous question.
Author:  thequietcenter [ Wed Jun 22, 2011 12:47 am ]
Post subject:  Re: I lose to another 8k
jts wrote:
thequietcenter wrote:
SoDesuNe wrote:
Have you solved the Graded Go Problems For Beginner series yet?


No, I mainly study the Wilcox material.


Have you ever done a book that was just problems to solve?


I own Graded Go Problems For Beginners and I did some of them and found them excellent. I've never stuck with a problem book. I own Bruce Wilcox's software and go back through it regularly. His software is simply amazing. It really gives me wonderful insight into the game.

In fact, I became very confused about 2 years ago because I was receiving public help and getting conflicting information from numerous advanced sources on the same topic. I was going to OTB Go Club, in KGS Teaching Ladder, Beginner's room etc as well as reading books. So I decided to take on a professional Go teacher and shut my ears to outside info.

So, I mainly will be focusing on the Wilcox material again and again and again.
Author:  SoDesuNe [ Wed Jun 22, 2011 2:08 am ]
Post subject:  Re: I lose to another 8k
I can assure you, doing Tsumegos to become a stronger Go player in universal truth and I don't know anyone who would deny that. Of course there are many ways to become stronger but if you don't practice to read (Life-and-Death and Tesuji) there will be no progress.

Havind said that, I don't know what the Wilcox material is nor what it offers but be sure you practice Life-and-Death and Tesuji problems if you want to get stronger.

As for the conflicting information: People learn in different ways and they enjoy different things. So all you'll hear is mostly personal experience. The one thing you can do: Try it and see if it fits you. If you don't enjoy it, there is no point in forcing.
For instance if you don't like to do Tsumegos in a book or online, you need to make sure that you will at least read in your games to get some practice. Tsumegos are just a shortcut to speed up the process, because you can experience and practice a lot of situations, which don't come up in every one of your games.



post scriptum:
thequietcenter wrote:
So I decided to take on a professional Go teacher and shut my ears to outside info.

But you do know, that you're asking for exactly that kind of info now, do you?
Author:  thequietcenter [ Wed Jun 22, 2011 2:27 am ]
Post subject:  Re: I lose to another 8k
daal wrote:
thequietcenter wrote:
daal wrote:
Nothing wrong with asking for reviews, but do you read them?


What makes you ask such a preposterous question?


I was waiting for a response to a review I gave you for another game, and then I noticed that you don't seem to respond to anybody. No "interesting," no "ah ha," no "thanks;" just an "I'd appreciate another review." People spend time trying to figure out what you did wrong, yet you don't even acknowledge their work. I was feeling miffed - that's what prompted my preposterous question.


My apologies, but I read all reviews and a lot of the questions posed to me seem rhetorical and I do ponder them. I did initially click the "like" button a few times.

Yes and I dont like being ignored either. It's happening to me at work. I keep emailing this girl for a reimbursement check I"m due and she doesnt even respond to them.

But I'm going to reduce my posts here significantly because I need to have a single paradigm and I'm convinced that Bruce Wilcox offers the best single resource for kyus. Of course, KGS Teaching Ladder is a significant help as well and there's no question about whether the student is listening, because it's realtime.
Author:  red_z06 [ Wed Jun 22, 2011 4:58 am ]
Post subject:  Re: I lose to another 8k
Here is a bit on the current world's #1 Lee Sai-Dol. He lived on an island with his father who was a fisherman. Every morning, the father would leave Sai-Dol a Tsumego problem to solve. He says it was solving these problems got him where he is today. :)

Whatever you do, no matter how long it takes, don't look at the answer. Problem solved with looking at the answer will never become yours as you will forget in matter of days, weeks or months.

Both Many Faces of Go 12 and SmartGo have excellent problem selection with increasing level of difficulty that you can use well past dan level. :)


The reason you get multiple answers are due to respective playing style. Mainly, territorial, universal, and fighting. The important thing is trying to figure out the merits of each direction any apply to your style.



What was your plan with B10 and A9?
Author:  jts [ Wed Jun 22, 2011 8:06 am ]
Post subject:  Re: I lose to another 8k
thequietcenter wrote:
... I need to have a single paradigm and I'm convinced that Bruce Wilcox offers the best single resource for kyus.


To each their own, but that doesn't mean you should just skip doing problem books. Studying Wilcox's material and doing GGPfB (or a book of straight up life-and-death) are complementary. No matter which "paradigm" you use to study go, the problems have the same solution.
Author:  oren [ Wed Jun 22, 2011 9:24 am ]
Post subject:  Re: I lose to another 8k
thequietcenter wrote:
So, I mainly will be focusing on the Wilcox material again and again and again.


What will you do when the pro and the Wilcox material disagree?
Author:  thequietcenter [ Wed Jun 22, 2011 4:39 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: I lose to another 8k
red_z06 wrote:
Both Many Faces of Go 12 and SmartGo have excellent problem selection with increasing level of difficulty that you can use well past dan level. :)



What was your plan with B10 and A9?


Thanks. I own SmartGo so I will have to try them. I was trying to form a nakade within his group? Anyway I failed as you can see.
Author:  Aphelion [ Wed Jun 22, 2011 6:19 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: I lose to another 8k
I'm fairly convinced that your overreliance on Wilcox's material is actually hindering your progress, but I don't think you will listen. If you are willing to give it a thought, I will explain more.
Author:  Joaz Banbeck [ Sat Jun 25, 2011 8:28 am ]
Post subject:  Re: I lose to another 8k
I have no doubt that Wilcox is a strong player and a fine teacher, but if you rely exclusively on him, you are presuming that he can anticipate any misunderstanding that you have. You really need some interactive comments.
I'll try to do a review later
Author:  Joaz Banbeck [ Sat Jun 25, 2011 4:15 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: I lose to another 8k
Move 7: This looks too small. I don't know the joseki from the ogeima - or even if it is joseki - but it just feels wrong.

Early in the game, a player should be making sure that his groups are either safe with eye space or easy running room, or light enough to be expendable. ( For a nice example of this by a 6D, see http://www.lifein19x19.com/forum/viewto ... 140#p61140. Note that all of white's stones are either single stones that can be abandoned at little cost, or have the beginnings of eye shape. )

Toward this end, 1-space extensions are usually made only in the corner where space is tight. Along the side, extensions are usually 2 spaces or more.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$----------------
$$| . . . . . . . . .
$$| . . . O . . . . .
$$| . . . . . . O . .
$$| . . X . . . . . .
$$| . . . . . . . . .
$$| . . . 7 . . . . .
$$| . . . . . . . . .
$$| . . a . . . . . .
$$| . . . . . . . . .[/go]

With move 7, you are making your group heavy enough that it can't be easily abandoned, yet you are not really getting eye space. He demonstrates that fact with the obvious move 8 at 'a'.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$----------------
$$| . . . . . . . . .
$$| . b . O . . . . .
$$| . . . . . . O . .
$$| . . X . . . . . .
$$| . . . . . . . . .
$$| . . . . . . . . .
$$| . . c d . . . . .
$$| . . e . . . . . .
$$| . . f . . . . . .[/go]


If you want to go for eye space in the corner, 'b' looks ok. Extensions to 'c' or 'd' look best. And, given that you have a stone in the lower left corner, a chinese-ish play at 'e' or even 'f' might not be unreasonable.

Move 15: As the twig is bent, so grows the tree. You're committed to your tiny 1-space extension, and when you build on it, you are getting way over-crowded.

You have this shape ( with the skeleton provided by the original 1-space extension circled ):

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ | . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . .
$$ | . X . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . .
$$ | . . B . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . .
$$ | . . X B . . .
$$ | . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . .[/go]

...but you would much prefer this shape:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ | . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . .
$$ | . X . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . .
$$ | . . X . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . .
$$ | . . X X . . .
$$ | . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . .[/go]

...or even this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B
$$ | . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . .
$$ | . X . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . .
$$ | . . X . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . .
$$ | . . X X . . .
$$ | . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . . .[/go]


Moves 19 and 21: The decendants of the 1-space jump are alive and ...uhh...not well. You have played 7 stones and barely have 3 or 4 points if white plays first. Indeed it is not immediately clear that black has two eyes in the face of a determined white attack.

Moves 49 and 65: The overcrowding continues. There are nine stones getting maybe seven points. The overconcentrated shape is a direct result of move 7.

Ok, I'm done abusing move 7. :) Let's look at other stuff.


Move 31: He has invaded your framework. You have a strong 3-stone group at the left and a single stone to the right. When attacking, you want to force him toward your strength, right? H3 or G4 looks better here.

Move 33: Again, this forces him away from your strength, and allows him eye space that he desperately wants. Instead, K3 would really crowd him. Next is maybe K3, J4, J5 ( you get the hane at the head of two stones ) and you are getting the beginnings of big territory in the lower right.
Author:  thequietcenter [ Tue Jun 28, 2011 10:59 am ]
Post subject:  Re: I lose to another 8k
oren wrote:
thequietcenter wrote:
So, I mainly will be focusing on the Wilcox material again and again and again.


What will you do when the pro and the Wilcox material disagree?


Wilcox - he's closer to my level of play
Author:  thequietcenter [ Tue Jun 28, 2011 11:00 am ]
Post subject:  Re: I lose to another 8k
Aphelion wrote:
I'm fairly convinced that your overreliance on Wilcox's material is actually hindering your progress, but I don't think you will listen. If you are willing to give it a thought, I will explain more.


No, I wont listen. Pretty much KGS Teaching Ladder is where I learn now.

That and Wilcox's go dojo.
Author:  judicata [ Tue Jun 28, 2011 11:12 am ]
Post subject:  Re: I lose to another 8k
thequietcenter wrote:

Wilcox - he's closer to my level of play


Oren and Aphelion are even closer to your level...
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