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hungry for territory
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Author:  CXUD [ Mon Aug 01, 2011 3:25 am ]
Post subject:  hungry for territory
http://eidogo.com/#2xNOhgHq

If I see a piece of territory left unclaimed I can't help but play there, I always end up fighting off reductions of my huge territory. Any advice on how I could better handle it. And any other commentary would be appreciated.


also why is it whenever I try to embed a file it says received invalid game data?
Author:  Joaz Banbeck [ Mon Aug 01, 2011 6:34 am ]
Post subject:  Re: hungry for territory
CXUD wrote:
...why is it whenever I try to embed a file it says received invalid game data?


Is this what you are trying to do?



If so, just quote mine ( but don't press 'submit' ) and you'll see how it works.
Author:  jts [ Mon Aug 01, 2011 8:33 am ]
Post subject:  Re: hungry for territory
You won this game, so there's no particularly useful advice we can give you... why don't you post a game you lost?

In general, if you're losing games where you think you have much more potential territory at a certain point but your opponent successfully reduces you, you have one of the following problems:

(i) Too attached to your potential territory. When your opponent plays a reduction, you normally want to jump way back, unless you can read out that your move prevents any further reductions with no bad aji.

(ii) Too greedy. If you play moves that look like they take a lot of territory, but actually leave lots of ugly shapes, painful cuts, and other bad aji, your opponent is going to be able to slice your position to ribbons later on.

(iii) Too optimistic. If you have thick walls that box in a territory except for two places where your opponent can peep in, you're not going to make a lot of territory there: if you finish off one of the weaknesses, he'll jump in to reduce you at the other. Your problem was earlier, when you invested so many stones to not-quite make a territory that was easy to reduce.

(iv) Too submissive. Sometimes when an opponent expands his territory and reduces your own, you need to find somewhere where you can do the same thing, instead of responding locally and letting him keep sente.
Author:  Dusk Eagle [ Mon Aug 01, 2011 10:37 am ]
Post subject:  Re: hungry for territory
Like jts said, it's difficult to review the most important points in a game you won by so much.

:b7: should be at P4 - it's good to remember this shape. After white next plays R6 or Q6, you can extend three spaces to L3 or L4 and have a good result.

:w12: - You should note that white can cut at N3 in this shape, after which the proper response for you would be to sacrifice your two stones with M3 (this will actually be an okay result for you). Trying to save your two stones with N2 will be terrible for you - you'll lose out on making a moyo on the bottom side, you'll be forced to crawl along the second line, and your two stones will have very little value anyway.

:w14: should only be played if white plans to give up his two stones and with it, the cut at N3. Otherwise, he should Q4.

:w16: is the ugliest shape I'll see this week - a textbook example. (Note though that since you've cut off White's P4 stones, your O3 stones are suddenly very valuable in preserving that cut, and you wouldn't want to sacrifice them anymore. If white successfully pulls out his empty triangle and later cuts at N3, you should want to play N2 to save them. Of course, if you can get a move to protect that cut before he gets to it, that is also very big.

:w18: is just poor reading, which you correctly exploit. You are way ahead after this.

:b45: should be at E4 - connect your stones!

:b57:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm57 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 4 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 6 O 3 . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 2 1 X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm57 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 6 O 2 . 8 . X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 4 1 X 3 . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . 5 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Both of these results are better than the game. D17 is only really played when a stone is at K16.

:b59: - D15 is a bigger point than it looks. If you get it, you threaten ugly things in his corner in his corner:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . |
$$ | . 7 O X . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 5 O X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . 4 3 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 6 O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm1 Prisoner Count: B-0 W-0
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . |
$$ | . 6 O X . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | 8 5 O X . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . 4 3 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 7 O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 9 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Whereas if he gets it, he has a hane at the head of your two stones, which is bad shape for you.
Author:  CXUD [ Mon Aug 01, 2011 8:47 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: hungry for territory
Dusk Eagle wrote:
Whereas if he gets it, he has a hane at the head of your two stones, which is bad shape for you.


I've realized that I do not know how to do reading or combat patterns, is there a source for the basics? I know hane at the head of two stones but so much of it like how to extend liberties and how to capture I have trouble with.

Joaz Banbeck wrote:
CXUD wrote:
...why is it whenever I try to embed a file it says received invalid game data?


Is this what you are trying to do?


If so, just quote mine ( but don't press 'submit' ) and you'll see how it works.

Yeah, do I have to enter in all that text? Or just hit the sgf full button?

jts wrote:
You won this game, so there's no particularly useful advice we can give you... why don't you post a game you lost?

In general, if you're losing games where you think you have much more potential territory at a certain point but your opponent successfully reduces you, you have one of the following problems:

(i) Too attached to your potential territory. When your opponent plays a reduction, you normally want to jump way back, unless you can read out that your move prevents any further reductions with no bad aji.

(ii) Too greedy. If you play moves that look like they take a lot of territory, but actually leave lots of ugly shapes, painful cuts, and other bad aji, your opponent is going to be able to slice your position to ribbons later on.

(iii) Too optimistic. If you have thick walls that box in a territory except for two places where your opponent can peep in, you're not going to make a lot of territory there: if you finish off one of the weaknesses, he'll jump in to reduce you at the other. Your problem was earlier, when you invested so many stones to not-quite make a territory that was easy to reduce.

(iv) Too submissive. Sometimes when an opponent expands his territory and reduces your own, you need to find somewhere where you can do the same thing, instead of responding locally and letting him keep sente.

Yeah I thought that. I was just wondering if there was a rule of thumb but I guess it's just what you can manage to defend.

I don't have any recent games that I've lost, I'll play one against gnu and post it in a bit.
Author:  Joaz Banbeck [ Mon Aug 01, 2011 9:34 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: hungry for territory
CXUD wrote:
...

Joaz Banbeck wrote:
CXUD wrote:
...why is it whenever I try to embed a file it says received invalid game data?


Is this what you are trying to do?


If so, just quote mine ( but don't press 'submit' ) and you'll see how it works.

Yeah, do I have to enter in all that text? Or just hit the sgf full button?
...


Click on the 'sgf full' button. Two delimiters will appear with the cursor betwwen them. Copy the .sgf file in there.
Author:  jts [ Mon Aug 01, 2011 9:44 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: hungry for territory
CXUD wrote:
Dusk Eagle wrote:
Whereas if he gets it, he has a hane at the head of your two stones, which is bad shape for you.


I've realized that I do not know how to do reading or combat patterns, is there a source for the basics? I know hane at the head of two stones but so much of it like how to extend liberties and how to capture I have trouble with.


Experience is one way. One very good way to get experience is to do tsumego (life and death problems); these are specifically about life and death situations, not fighting situations, but the key think is that they teach you to focus and read out many moves ahead of time.

You could also browse around the old posts in this sub-forum and the "study group" sub-forum. For a long time Joaz had a post called "advice for beginners" that linked to different posts discussing these sorts of principles.

Once you can read out three or four moves ahead without any difficulty, and you've had some exposure to the basics, there are books on tesuji (handy moves) that you can study.


CXUD wrote:
I don't have any recent games that I've lost, I'll play one against gnu and post it in a bit.


Why not play against humans? If you haven't lost any games recently, that probably means that you're improving. Just play a bunch more games and get your games reviewed when you start losing more frequently.
Author:  CXUD [ Wed Aug 03, 2011 8:16 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: hungry for territory
I've found that there are scarce hints of it everywhere but not a huge comprehensive thing. I still remember having to work out for myself how if you have ex. two stones at c3 and d3 and your opponent has two stones at c4 and d4 and puts one at e3 that if you put one at e2 it's not just a block but a threat to possibly do something at e4 or f3. Just the basic mechanics of how things can work, having to figure them out and piece them together was a pain.

I would play humans but it makes me anxious for some reason. I feel more relaxed when I'm being beaten by a computer.

Joaz Banbeck wrote:
Click on the 'sgf full' button. Two delimiters will appear with the cursor betwwen them. Copy the .sgf file in there.


here's my attempt:



edit: it still says received invalid game data.
Author:  jts [ Wed Aug 03, 2011 8:39 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: hungry for territory
The reason why it's not working is that you're not linking to an .sgf file; you're linking to a page that has an .sgf file embedded in it. There are three ways to get it to work.

1. Download the .sgf, attack it to your post, preview the post, copy the link to the file that's in the preview, and then paste that link between the sgf tags.

2. Download the .sgf, turn it into a .txt file, open it up, copy, and paste the whole file between the sgf tags.

3. Find the source of the file on the website you're getting it from, copy the link, and paste that link between the sgf tags. (As best I can tell Eidogo intentionally prevents you from seeing the link.)
Author:  CXUD [ Wed Aug 03, 2011 8:55 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: hungry for territory
Ahhhh. Thanks.
Author:  Joaz Banbeck [ Wed Aug 03, 2011 9:39 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: hungry for territory
jts wrote:
... For a long time Joaz had a post called "advice for beginners" that linked to different posts discussing these sorts of principles...


I still do. It is: http://www.lifein19x19.com/forum/viewto ... f=11&t=667
Author:  CXUD [ Thu Aug 04, 2011 1:37 am ]
Post subject:  Re: hungry for territory
Thank you both. I'm going through the material, it's alot of what I needed to know.
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