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Offline Joaz Banbeck
 Post subject: Me in fun game vs another escaper
Post #1 Posted: Sun Oct 09, 2011 3:05 pm 
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I felt pretty good about this one...which is a sure sign that I'm getting overconfident again. Any comments are welcome, especially on how to improve my game. I'm most concerned with the upper left, particularly move 41.
( Correction: On move 71, 'a' is supposed to be at S15 )


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Offline Mef
 Post subject: Re: Me in fun game vs another escaper
Post #2 Posted: Sun Oct 09, 2011 10:03 pm 
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Joaz Banbeck wrote:
I felt pretty good about this one...which is a sure sign that I'm getting overconfident again. Any comments are welcome, especially on how to improve my game. I'm most concerned with the upper left, particularly move 41.
( Correction: On move 71, 'a' is supposed to be at S15 )



Haven't looked through the whole game yet, but in the upper right, after W14 you have transposed back to a very common joseki (to me that feels like B was perhaps slack with R17), the "normal" move at that point for black I'm pretty sure is to push O14, then make a move to strengthen R17. As white, I would consider N16 passive, and just extend to M15 (perhaps saying "thank you" as well (= ). The exchange that followed in game though I think turned out better for B. Personally, I would want to keep the pressure on that top group with B35, I think letting white get the first jump out makes the fight a easier for him (though W making a second group does himself no favors...).
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Offline Suji
 Post subject: Re: Me in fun game vs another escaper
Post #3 Posted: Sun Oct 09, 2011 10:15 pm 
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I thought that you played that pretty well. :D If only I could play like you....

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Offline gaius
 Post subject: Re: Me in fun game vs another escaper
Post #4 Posted: Mon Oct 10, 2011 1:37 am 
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I would say that :b71: at T18 kills in the safest way. No?

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Offline Mef
 Post subject: Re: Me in fun game vs another escaper
Post #5 Posted: Mon Oct 10, 2011 2:53 am 
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Ok, back again with more time, and a couple more comments/thoughts/ramblings/etc (as always grain of salt, etc).

-I don't like offering the trade with 43. To me it seems like you are offering white the opportunity to take 2 weak groups, connect them, and make territory with them. B would get a large corner with the ponukki, but if you are considering the J17 stones dead, B's corner is about the same size as what you are giving white on the top, so I'm not sure it is really profit. I'll also admit I'm hard pressed to come up with how I would want to reply to E16 to get better result (= , like I mentioned earlier, I think I would have originally just wanted to play B35 around K13, squeeze white out through the middle, and end up "forcing" black to make a move around G17 giving B the top and leaving white still running (with no point yet).


-I think you're right B's ahead after 57, and I think W still wants a move for that top center group. I feel like W plays 58 with the intention of mounting an attack on B's top right group (otherwise I'm not sure what W is aiming for here). At any rate I think I'd want something simple like L11, removing any chance of W pressuring this group, gives you a chance to push on both sides? *shrug*

-B71, I think even if you have a kill you (by you, I guess I mean me (= ) want sente more on this board. White takes gote to claim 5 points while you get to turn on two weak groups (also for W I think I like S11 more for white as a forcing move instead of R12).

Really hard for white after that....the only other thing I would say is...B115, are you planning on playing out WG14 - BJ14 - WH17 - BJ16 - WG15? (I'll admit, I haven't looked at it too much, maybe you read this out and it works for you...but if you don't j14 w just lives anyway...) Otherwise I'd just say instead of P18, play K8, lock down your position and let white scramble....

All right, I guess I've gone long enough (sorry, slow day at work (= )
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Offline gaius
 Post subject: Re: Me in fun game vs another escaper
Post #6 Posted: Mon Oct 10, 2011 5:03 am 
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White move the upper right corner joseki is interesting, I'm not so sure whether it actually is bad. Let's analyse!
Firstly, I don't like this :b5: :
Go Diagram
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . 2 . . 1 , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . 4 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

Tewari exposes the problem: :b5: is a bit odd.
Go Diagram
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . 2 . . 1 , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . 4 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

Another possibility for black is this ( :b7: can maybe also be at 'a'?). It looks interesting and complicated!
Go Diagram
fighting :)
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc fighting :)
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . a . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . 2 . . 1 , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 6 . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 5 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

White also has a possibility to deviate. This :w2: looks interesting, one can imagine continuations like this:
Go Diagram
deviation by white
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc deviation by white
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 7 . 6 . . . . . . . . 1 2 . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . O . . X 3 O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . 8 . . . . . . . . . 4 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

It is not obvious to me which side is better here. Perhaps it's even?

The game reverts back to joseki after :w6:. This is normal ( :b9: could be at 'a' if you have the ladder - but you don't have it here):
Go Diagram
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 9 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 a . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . O . . X 3 O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 2 . 4 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 6 . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 8 X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

But :b3: from that variation looks ugly to me. Perhaps the following :b3: is also possible.
Go Diagram
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1 . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . O . . X . O 3 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2 . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

The best continuation I can find is:
Go Diagram
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4 . 7 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 6 1 X 5 . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . O . . X 2 O X . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 8 O . 3 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

... which could be playable. General conclusion: I think white's move is very interesting and there are a lot of possible variations. Unfortunately, I don't have the appropriate Ishida volume to check stuff. Could anybody check this in a good joseki book?


General ideas (at my level):
:b35: - seems in the wrong direction. You have two weak(-ish) groups and white has one, so I think the focus of the game now is the fighting to get ahead in the center. I would help one of your groups, for example with J16 or O14.

:w40: - if white simply pushes out at G16, I think black has a bad position because white is ahead in this fight. I blame :b35:.

After :w44: black seems to come back into the game though. I really dislike the combination of :w40: and :w44:. BTW, I do like :b43:! I agree that black is good after :b57:

:b59: - aji keshi? There's a lot of delicious aji left at R11, I wouldn't want to give white the opportunity to fix that. Just my feeling.

As I said earlier, I think :b71: at T18 kills, but also without the kill black is winning at this point. Two last comments: B 111 hurts my eyes. AJIKESHI! And B 123 is unnecessary, and gote because living and escaping are miai - what if white plays D8 now? At least he gets another chance!

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Offline Prodigious
 Post subject: Re: Me in fun game vs another escaper
Post #7 Posted: Tue Oct 11, 2011 7:29 am 
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With regard to the "joseki" in the upper right corner

Go Diagram
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . 2 . . 1 , O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 4 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 6 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 7 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |[/go]


Surely this is good enough? White's pincer stone ends up too close to black's wall

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