I've been getting quite frustrated recently because I seem to keep losing in the same ways. This is a pretty good example of that (and with large time limits too, so no pressure there) - I just can't deal with a player who takes good territory.

The last invasion was a last gasp unreasonable play, but obviously the problem sets in early on. Please give me some help!

My 7 kyu instinct doesn't like your W12. Just look at the board. I love his groups, but hate yours. Why not play senraisen at W6? Let him do the work to overcome the komi.

I think that locally W12 is perfect shape. In fact, I think that black should have split the three space extension with 9 to prevent white from getting that spot. Playing elsewhere invites black to come in, and white's stones will be split in an area where black is strong.

I don't like 22, since after 23/24 W's group is still not stable, so B is able to attack over the rest of the board. This means that 20 was the wrong direction and should have been at C15.

26 is wrong direction, as it's not attacking or creating territory and it's not really reducing B's - perhaps K3 to provoke a B invasion? If B plays M5 then there's always R6.

28: D10 is weak if it can't connect up to the top group (which is also weak), so it's best not to strengthen B this way. Try C5 followed by F4, but 35 gives W an opportunity - the B group can now be made heavy by playing (say) C9 at the same time as W D10 gets stronger.

37 hmmm push up and cut feels right, but the ladder doesn't work, so maybe B can't. However doesn't E13, F13, G12, F12, G13, F14, C12 cut the two groups? However, the lower B group is so weak in this event that it's not practical for B.

38 should be at F12, or more probably C9. This way gives B the opportunity to play F13

46 is ambitious as it doesn't quite protect the F11 cutting point. B could counter with something like H9

But 59 gives W an opportunity to fix things up at H9, but is spurned... Obviously W needs to play E9 to protect against the coming cut first!

But B fails to kill the W group - 67 should be at B12. If B11 then C11, C10, B13 seems to kill w.

72 is unnecessary and allows B to secure his central group. If B11 then B7, C7, D9 assures the group of 2 eyes.

After this W is lost - he has less than 10 points in the bottom left, 3 on the left, 5 at the top and 10 on the right and a few in the centre, i.e. about 40 including komi. B has at least 25 on the bottom, 10-15 at the top, 10 on the top left and 10 in the centre.

So why?

Well, W created his own weak groups, especially with the attack at 38. Move out into the centre first before digging in along the edge. Threaten from a distance, not by direct attack as this often strengthens your opponent.

Does this help?

Jon

Sanrensei is possible, but is the most popular move in this position.

@Stable: I'm a weak 6 kyu on KGS but I think your problem in this game was why playon the 4th line?
I think a pincer on the 3rd would be better here. The reason should be clear after . Black has no big weakneses to attack so your influence is getting a bit useless and at this point you have almost no territory, Black can and will invade the lower left.

I don't really understand this move, it looks like an overplay to me.

This is an all or nothing move, it's true that you can only win if you kill it but you should know that your 2 groups that surround this group are not strong enough to attack.

After this move you lost a bit of territory but more importantly your group was weakenend and can bearly live in the corner.

sure it protects your cut but it's from the wrong direction, your group on the middle needs help, then you can maybe kill black.
Black shows you at :57: why you should have played from above.

That's all, since I'm a lot weaker then you you can ignore me or correct me if I'm wrong. Everyone else is also welcomme to correct me.

Thanks Mumps, good points. I completely missed that I didn't need to defend at 72. What's the advantage of playing c9 though? It doesn't seem to do much to get eyes and doesn't threaten the cut at the b group below either.

Blades, you may be right about many of your points, and I certainly won't discount them without a look. I played high because I wanted to play for influence, and was a part of that (though it may still be an overplay). Unfortunately I then destroyed what I was working towards by mishandling black's entrance to the lower left.

With if I defend on the other side b can cut, as it stands I have a ladder, so b can't cut.

Thanks for the input.

Some comments on the opening.



IMO, your problems arose from poor choices of joseki, especially the attach and extend in the top left and the attach and block in the bottom left. As a result, your stones failed to work together.

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Thanks Bill, that's very helpful.

I wrote a long reply and then timed out and lost it all... So this version is a bit less detailed.

You have a fundamental weakness in your fighting. It is not about individual moves but your general approach. Just because a group can't be killed doesn't mean that it is yet alive. You need to attack groups in ways that help your global position. Instead you keep playing unnecessary defensive moves.

you also play several moves extending a group, then immediately give up as soon as you are attacked. The classic example of this was you should play H3

this is not even the right move if you were trying to defend the group , but more importantly you can fight for the middle of the board.

was a very poor move which fails to show the real problem in your sequence from w12 onwards. You are again defending a vulnerable group but you allow black to attack your group and become stronger and build territory at the same time.

you should take the corner instead leave black with a weak group and keep it disconected. You haven't got any territory yet and you are too keen to play on the fourth row in this position.

Black is overplaying, ignoring your sente moves. In these circumstances you should treat your stones as alive until black can bprove them otherwise. However, you could have avoided much of this by playing a different flavour of opening and playing R4.

I felt my 7 kyu comment on this 1 dan was already an overplay but you beat me by far.



You probably mean H2 after which b connects at G4. If W next defends his H2 group sooner or later his corner will get killed by C3. But he will undoubtly be grateful for your more fundamental remarks.

I try to remember this post when reviewing:

http://www.lifein19x19.com/forum/viewto ... 465#p46465

In general, I think it's good to just read the comments without worrying about the commentor's rank (though I have to admit I have trouble with that myself :p).

Still, I disagree with many of Tetron's points, except about move 72, which I presume is just an illusion of thinking it was sente to cut.

Edit: After looking through the game, it feels like a main issue for white was in helping black strengthen what might otherwise be targets (e.g. the two attachment on top sequences from the star points on the left side).

I cut my comment back a lot. My 5 kyu rating is based upon last live tournament of more than a decade ago and was probably an underrating. I had a weakness in invading the middle of the board, never learnt any joseki and am prone to blunders. The only tournament game I ever lost involved a 100 point mistake after correctly refusing a ko threat for a 3 point ko.

I have no idea where my current rating should be at... had a 5 dan misread the last live game I played for fun against a 3 kyu but my general shape play is still very strong even if reading is rusty.

Yes I did mean H2. My longer version had expanded upon this move.

I realise now that despite my wish to expand upon it it is not possible to do it in any way that would be useful.

Two points:
1) I did not play the stones necessarily with the intention of keeping them alive
my plan wasn't to keep the corner group alive although this move gives the option to secure the corner
2) but I didn't believe after w52 that even killing the black group was enough to win.

The plan for the lower corner was to try to escape the white corner group either up a direct attack on the black stones or across but with the option of taking the side simply by killing J3

Many of us just post our KGS ranks. It's slightly more time consuming to acquire but ultimately easier than spending credibility arguing about your "real rating".

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It ensures that your stones have potential eyes along the edge, separating the two B groups, and make a subsequent play at B8 totally destabilising for the B group below. Hence it's a sente move against the lower group and actually attacking it, but from a distance.

Jon

You advise c9 for and for ;both times I think you mean c8.

I disagree with Tetron on Black 13, it looks to me like the natural move for Black.

I disagree with Tetron on White 16. It might not be the best move, but there is no way to both take the corner and keep Black weak at the same time, it is a damn standard low approach, if you take the corner Black ends stable on the outside, even with more fancy moves as the footsweep.

However, I find it hilarious that people look for the rank first - not on the content of advice given. Often you don't need to be too strong to tell good from bad advice. His comment on White 72 is at least according to my reading correct, and of course upon seeing Black 73 White is hopeless. So even when you are not sure, how on earth can you defend?

In my opinion, White decided to go for influence regardless of what the opponent did, but to make influence work (= you are behind in territory by playing that way) you need to set up the game in a way you can make it work later on, that is building a framework that will generate a target (invasion) or having a target to attack from start. B27 provides the opportunity to create a target or to build a framework but then White chickens out and chooses to strengthen Black, neutralizing its only asset (influence) for a little territory, which is by far not enough after spending so many moves to gain it. Stick to your original plan and try to make it work.

I believe this is often the case if you are out of balance already. When replaying professional games with frameworks it always strikes me, that they just prefer to make it even bigger, playing moves and sequences they would never play if they had not this e.g. sanrensei on the other side of the board, because likely it is too late to go back, take territory and get into balance again. When you already have so much stones played for influence on board, W26 (a typical Takemiya-esque framework building move) or the starpoints on the sides, consistency and a plan to make those stones do some work is way more important than belated attempts to gain balance back, which tend to waste the only asset you have.

It's because of the "fundamental weakness" bit. Saying move 72 is not necessary is specific factual advice. We can judge whether it's right or wrong based on the board, regardless of the speaker. Saying "you have a fundamental weakness" is setting yourself above someone else's go in order to judge it. I'm sure tetron is a nice guy or gal and didn't mean it that way, but that's the kind of comment it is--maybe appropriate for your teacher, not so much for a stranger your rank or below.

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This is actually somewhat true. There was a lot of not following through on ideas. Once he committed to a course of play, he needed to follow it through to its logical conclusion, and he often didn't, pulling back and protecting a number of times rather than taking the plunge.



He played correctly after he played H3. I might quibble with H3, but not with the subsequent moves. He had to isolate the center, he succeeded in doing so. H2 just unnecessarily gives black great attacks.



72 wasn't the issue in this fight, it was trying to shut white in, while leaving an elephant-jump gap behind. Or perhaps where white can play F8 to cut black off. If he wanted to kill his chances were here.



It's not poor at all, where would you play instead? The problem was not from w12 onwards, but not invading the 3 space pincer immediately and thus leaving no aji here.

I disagree with Bill Spight on this, I don't think W12 feels small at all. I think it feels solid with points, and black's framework on the lower right is not solid territory yet, that solidity can be useful later.




You can't leave black weak there... there's no way to do it. But I agree that w16 is just plain hideous. It's fine to play this move, IF you're not going to become cramped by a double kakari... but right now, W is inviting B to settle, in return for a double wing from a star point. Black can even just tenuki and invade the bottom left corner at 3x3 in sente.

In fact, C14 demonstrates just what a good move K17 is. White's moves to extend from his stone in the upper right can invariably be met with a very strong slide into the corner... white has no room for growth there.




Tapir suggests we should look at the content of the advice, rather than the rank giving it. However, many of your suggestions are stylistic ones, and if I'm being told general style methodologies for playing, I'd like to know that the person suggesting them was around my level.

Further, you give an argument as to why you are not actually 5k. You were not required to WRITE "5k" for your rank information, that was volunteered. That being the case, why should you be surprised if people treat your advice as though coming from a 5k?

You don't have to write anything for the rank if you don't think you have an accurate one right now. But I have a feeling here that, while you are maybe not 5k, you are not strong enough to be certain about your criticism of a 1d-2d KGS game. That is not to say your criticism is strictly wrong, but an attitude of humility would go far.

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