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3k vs 2d on DGS
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Author:  emeraldemon [ Tue Nov 08, 2011 4:25 pm ]
Post subject:  3k vs 2d on DGS
I took 3 stones in this DGS game. I felt good through the opening and early midgame, but white's attack starting at :w77: split my group in two and caused lots of trouble. I was able to sacrifice one of the groups for some profit on the left, and entering yose I counted myself about 5 points ahead. White must have counted similarly, because he started this attack:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$W Moves 197 to 201
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . X X O . . . . . O X . . . . |
$$ | . . . . X X O O . . . O . O O X . O . |
$$ | . 5 . X X O O . . X . O O X X . X O . |
$$ | . . X X O O . . O , . O X O . X X O . |
$$ | . 1 X O X O . . . X . O X X X . X O . |
$$ | . 3 O O X O . . O X . O O X . X O . . |
$$ | . 2 . O X O . . . X . O X X O . O . . |
$$ | . . . O X O . X . . X O O . O . . O . |
$$ | . 4 O X X O X X . . . . . . . X O X O |
$$ | . . X X X O O X O , O . . O . X X . X |
$$ | . . X X O O X O O . . . . . O X . X X |
$$ | . X . X X X X X X O . . . . O X X . O |
$$ | . X X O . O . X O . O . O O O O O X . |
$$ | O X O O . . O X . O . X O X X O O X X |
$$ | . O X X . . X O . O O O X X . X O O O |
$$ | . O O X X X X . O , . X X . X X X X O |
$$ | . . O X O O X . O X . . . . . . . X X |
$$ | . . O O . O X . X . X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


eventually white was able to get a ko in the corner, and I had to resign. I'm interested in comments for the whole game, but particularly my mishandling of that final attack. I'm sure there was a way to kill white unconditionally there :scratch:

Here's the sgf:
Author:  Marcus [ Tue Nov 08, 2011 9:08 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: 3k vs 2d on DGS
For Black 204, I think A16 would be better than your A17. That way, White does not get the A18 forcing move in the corner, and you threaten to connect with A14 underneath. There's no room in the corner for White to both take liberties from your Black group and threaten to live outright in the corner. If White does not play A15 immediately, there should be no question of you winning the capturing race, I think.

If I've missed something, someone should correct me, I'm sure. :)

EDIT: Also, before you resign, you should look at playing C12. Shortage of liberties means White cannot play A15. You win the capturing race anyways.

EDIT #2: I see ... he lives in the corner, you lose the game. Gotcha.
Author:  Joaz Banbeck [ Tue Nov 08, 2011 9:18 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: 3k vs 2d on DGS
204 at A16. You're ahead by one liberty. This should be on your short list of candidate moves. Indeed, it should be AHEAD of A17 on that list. ( BTW, this is one of the instances in which Hailthorn's intuitive style works :lol: )

Consider a tewari analysis: if you played A16, and he played A18, would you play A17? Not in a million years! ( You would play B19, right? ) But when two of the three moves are swapped, you play them. :o

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c Black to play. Is the best move 'a' or 'b'?
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . b . . . X X O . . . . . O X . . . . |
$$ | 2 . O . X X O O . . . O . O O X . O . |
$$ | a O . X X O O . . X . O O X X . X O . |
$$ | 1 X X X O O . . O , . O X O . X X O . |
$$ | . O X O X O . . . X . O X X X . X O . |
$$ | . O O O X O . . O X . O O X . X O . . |
$$ | . X . O X O . . . X . O X X O . O . . |
$$ | . . . O X O . X . . X O O . O . . O . |
$$ | . X O X X O X X . . . . . . . X O X O |
$$ | . . X X X O O X O , O . . O . X X . X |
$$ | . . X X O O X O O . . . . . O X . X X |
$$ | . X . X X X X X X O . . . . O X X . O |
$$ | . X X O . O . X O . O . O O O O O X . |
$$ | O X O O . . O X . O . X O X X O O X X |
$$ | . O X X . . X O . O O O X X . X O O O |
$$ | . O O X X X X . O , . X X . X X X X O |
$$ | . . O X O O X . O X . . . . . . . X X |
$$ | . . O O . O X . X . X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


It is really simple when you look at it like that.

BTW, I think the best continuation for both sides looks like this:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . 4 . . . X X O . . . . . O X . . . . |
$$ | 5 . O . X X O O . . . O . O O X . O . |
$$ | 2 O . X X O O . . X . O O X X . X O . |
$$ | 1 X X X O O . . O , . O X O . X X O . |
$$ | . O X O X O . . . X . O X X X . X O . |
$$ | 3 O O O X O . . O X . O O X . X O . . |
$$ | . X . O X O . . . X . O X X O . O . . |
$$ | . . . O X O . X . . X O O . O . . O . |
$$ | . X O X X O X X . . . . . . . X O X O |
$$ | . . X X X O O X O , O . . O . X X . X |
$$ | . . X X O O X O O . . . . . O X . X X |
$$ | . X . X X X X X X O . . . . O X X . O |
$$ | . X X O . O . X O . O . O O O O O X . |
$$ | O X O O . . O X . O . X O X X O O X X |
$$ | . O X X . . X O . O O O X X . X O O O |
$$ | . O O X X X X . O , . X X . X X X X O |
$$ | . . O X O O X . O X . . . . . . . X X |
$$ | . . O O . O X . X . X . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]
Author:  emeraldemon [ Tue Nov 08, 2011 9:43 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: 3k vs 2d on DGS
Thanks to you both. It's pretty obvious in retrospect; if only I had seen it in the game...
Author:  Joaz Banbeck [ Tue Nov 08, 2011 9:50 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: 3k vs 2d on DGS
BTW, why is move 16 at K17? It is rather close to his strength and it leaves a cutting point at M17.
If you want to play in that general area, it should be at L17, IMHO.

Just make that one tiny change in your fuseki and you never would have had to deal with endgame sneakiness because you would have crushed him. :rambo:
Author:  lightvector [ Tue Nov 08, 2011 10:39 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: 3k vs 2d on DGS
If reading out white's living possibilities in the corner is taxing, then if you know a little bit about capturing races, this is a another way to win the fight a couple of moves earlier.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c
$$ -------------------
$$ | . . . . . X X O .
$$ | . . 1 . X X O O .
$$ | . O . X X O O . .
$$ | . . X X O O . . O
$$ | . O X O X O . . .
$$ | . O O O X O . . O
$$ | . X . O X O . . .
$$ | . . . O X O . X .
$$ | . X O X X O X X .
$$ | . . X X X O O X O
$$ | . . X X O O X O O[/go]


If white just pushes forward, you live, and leave a straightforward miai for the kill.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c
$$ -------------------
$$ | . a . 3 . X X O .
$$ | . 2 X . X X O O .
$$ | . O . X X O O . .
$$ | . b X X O O . . O
$$ | . O X O X O . . .
$$ | . O O O X O . . O
$$ | . X . O X O . . .
$$ | . . . O X O . X .
$$ | . X O X X O X X .
$$ | . . X X X O O X O
$$ | . . X X O O X O O[/go]


If white takes your eye point, then you win the capturing race easily. This is an eye versus no eye fight, and moreover white will have to laboriously spend moves at both a and b before he can put you in atari. So it's hopeless for white.
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c
$$ -------------------
$$ | . 7 . 2 . X X O .
$$ | 4 3 X . X X O O .
$$ | a O . X X O O . .
$$ | 6 5 X X O O . . O
$$ | b O X O X O . . .
$$ | . O O O X O . . O
$$ | . X . O X O . . .
$$ | . . . O X O . X .
$$ | . X O X X O X X .
$$ | . . X X X O O X O
$$ | . . X X O O X O O[/go]


To elaborate, envisioning this exchange, black then has 5 liberties (4 in the eye, 1 shared). And counting liberties for white, "c" is not white's liberty (in an eye versus no eye, the eye side "owns" all shared liberties exclusively). And "d" is not white's liberty because white must fill it, and white loses one more liberty in addition to that because black gets an extra move while white fills "d". So white has only 2 liberties. Black is three liberties ahead.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$c
$$ -------------------
$$ | c X . O . X X O .
$$ | O X X . X X O O .
$$ | W O B X X O O . .
$$ | O X X X O O . . O
$$ | d O X O X O . . .
$$ | . O O O X O . . O
$$ | . X . O X O . . .
$$ | . . . O X O . X .
$$ | . X O X X O X X .
$$ | . . X X X O O X O
$$ | . . X X O O X O O[/go]
Author:  golem7 [ Wed Nov 09, 2011 1:32 am ]
Post subject:  Re: 3k vs 2d on DGS
Some moves that caught my eye:

16 is really bad in this position. As someone said, if you want to play there, play L17. But I think the top isn't interesting at all, because b (L17+S17 miai) and w are both strong there. So with 16 you make w stronger and also give him an invasion point (M17) to use his strength, all this in gote! Imho you should play C6/C7 instead to negate white's strength on the left.

22 was maybe too ambitious, because white is strong on the left, but fighting makes you stronger ;) and the result wasn't too bad.

50: the simple connection looks dull, think about G5 or H5 instead to keep up the pressure.

80 should be at M16, which threatens to connect while taking w's liberties away. White has a strong wall to support his 2 stones, you cannot expect to kill them. And as you are split, both groups get in trouble.
Hm, I thought about this again: while it's true that white's wall has a weak point (which'd justify your attack) I think your opponent gave up the left side too easily:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B 7 connects
$$ -----------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . X O . . . .
$$ | . . . X X . O . . X .
$$ | . . X 3 2 O . . . , .
$$ | . . X O 1 4 . . . X .
$$ | . . O 5 6 . . . O X .
$$ | . . . O . 8 . . . X .
$$ | . . . . . . . X . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .[/go]

if b extends:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$B 7 connects
$$ -----------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .
$$ | . . . . . X O . . . .
$$ | . . . X X . O . . X .
$$ | . . X X O O . . . , .
$$ | . . X O X O . . . X .
$$ | . . O 5 1 6 . . O X .
$$ | . . . O 3 2 . . . X .
$$ | . . . . 4 8 . X . . .
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . .[/go]

This way your group would still be dead, but you wouldn't get the whole left either, at this point game over, I think. (80 started it imo ;))
Author:  SoDesuNe [ Wed Nov 09, 2011 6:20 am ]
Post subject:  Re: 3k vs 2d on DGS
My try ^^ More suggestions, what I would have done in certain situations : )
Author:  Shaddy [ Wed Nov 09, 2011 7:24 am ]
Post subject:  Re: 3k vs 2d on DGS
Author:  cyclops [ Thu Nov 10, 2011 6:29 am ]
Post subject:  "invade at sansan later"
"There seems to be a superstition that when w takes 4-5 in a 3 stone game, b has to invade at 3-4" ( from The breakthrough to shodan, p84 ). Miyamoto advises this:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wc
$$ +---------------------------------------+
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 6 . 7 . . . . . 5 . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . 8 . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . 4 . . . |
$$ | . . 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . 2 . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ +---------------------------------------+[/go]
He promises an easy win. Is he wrong?

BTW: I loved this game and all the comments made!!
Author:  Bill Spight [ Thu Nov 10, 2011 11:16 am ]
Post subject:  Re: 3k vs 2d on DGS
The last fight has been pretty well analyzed. My two cents earlier in the game. :)



Play more for outside strength.

Edited, thanks to cyclops's eagle eye. :)

Edited again. Will I ever learn this game? {sigh}

Look at variations around move 80.
Author:  cyclops [ Thu Nov 10, 2011 12:06 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: 3k vs 2d on DGS
@Bill:
White to play and manage this:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ------------------
$$ . . X X X . . . .
$$ . O X O . O O X .
$$ . O X O O O X X .
$$ . O O X X X . . X
$$ . . X . . . . . .[/go]


BTW: great comments as always!!
Author:  Bill Spight [ Thu Nov 10, 2011 1:04 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: 3k vs 2d on DGS
cyclops wrote:
@Bill:
White to play and manage this:
Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bc
$$ ------------------
$$ . . X X X . . . .
$$ . O X O . O O X .
$$ . O X O O O X X .
$$ . O O X X X . . X
$$ . . X . . . . . .[/go]


BTW: great comments as always!!


How silly of me! Thanks. :)
Author:  Bill Spight [ Thu Nov 10, 2011 6:59 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: 3k vs 2d on DGS
I still missed a trick or two. I have edited my comments again.
Author:  emeraldemon [ Fri Nov 11, 2011 9:50 am ]
Post subject:  Re: 3k vs 2d on DGS
Thanks Bill, it's a pretty complicated fight!
Author:  sholvar [ Mon Nov 14, 2011 5:21 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: 3k vs 2d on DGS
I come back after nearly a year of absense. The first thing I see is a Big SGF from Bill Spight and already learn one or two new things. :tmbup:

Especially improving your thought process in the beginning and learning to see the power of influence and center control can make life so much easier. I believe that a mistake is more costly the earlier you make it, because it puts you in a disadvantage and thus complicates future situations for you, what will eventually lead to more mistakes in the middle- or endgame. Also it's kind of funny to win the game after giving your opponent all he wanted to take, not knowing that there were indeed much more important things to gain (like allowing him to revive dead stones through connection while gaining center control in exchange).

I still have some questions left, though.

Concerning the answers here about the first black move, I feel that most moves are treated quite equally while my feeling says that C6 and K16 are way advantageous to the other ones, like the one played in the game. Am I wrong to think that countering (or at least considering) the opponents plan is a big value itself? How would you order the suggestions according to their real value?

At move 20 Bill advises to play E6. I often see this advice from players between 2d and 5d amateur level. But pros seem to despise them. What are the strengths and weaknesses of that move? When to prefer that and when to prefer a simple 4th line extension as played in the game?
Author:  Bill Spight [ Wed Nov 16, 2011 5:41 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: 3k vs 2d on DGS
sholvar wrote:
I still have some questions left, though.

Concerning the answers here about the first black move, I feel that most moves are treated quite equally while my feeling says that C6 and K16 are way advantageous to the other ones, like the one played in the game. Am I wrong to think that countering (or at least considering) the opponents plan is a big value itself? How would you order the suggestions according to their real value?


The real question is how to develop your own judgement. Besides, my opinion is just my opinion. :)

Quote:
At move 20 Bill advises to play E6. I often see this advice from players between 2d and 5d amateur level. But pros seem to despise them.


That is an illusion. The boshi is not usual, but it is playable. And pros play it from time to time.

Quote:
What are the strengths and weaknesses of that move? When to prefer that and when to prefer a simple 4th line extension as played in the game?


My own thinking here has a good bit to do with the fact that it is a handicap game.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm21 Not so good for White, I think.
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X X . O . . X . . . X . . X . . |
$$ | . . X , . O . . . , . . . . . X . O . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . 2 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . 1 . X . X . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


:w21: gave Black the opportunity to play :b22: and invade the left side.


Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Wcm21 How deep is my valley
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X X . O . . X . . . X . . X . . |
$$ | . . X , . O . . . , . . . . . X . O . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . a . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . X . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . X . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


I like :w21: here. "a" is also playable, I think, as are other moves around this point. At first glance such a play looks too loose, but in pro-pro handicap games, back in the day when they played such games to win, you often see this kind of plan. White sketches out a large moyo, daring Black to enter. Surprisingly often, Black does not, ceding a rather large territory to White. :) (When White started off going for influence, I thought that he might play like this, but he did not.)

Click Here To Show Diagram Code
[go]$$Bcm20 The frontier
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X X . O . . X . . . X . . X . . |
$$ | . . X , . O . . . , . . . . . X . O . |
$$ | . . X O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . O . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . B . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . B . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------[/go]


The boshi, :b20:, lies on the frontier between opposing frameworks, enlarging Black's framework while reducing White's. A good move. :)
Author:  emeraldemon [ Wed Nov 16, 2011 10:27 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: 3k vs 2d on DGS
Daily joseki shows 614 pro games with that move:

http://dailyjoseki.com/browse/bwpwxibvs

note the strong hint of a black stone at the mid star point.
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