Some joseki variations for the bottom right corner, and a couple of comments.
Edit: It seems that
is OK, per Uberdude. I have added a variation for
.
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| Author: | entropi [ Wed Feb 15, 2012 5:38 am ] |
| Post subject: | anyone care to comment? |
I was lucky to win that game, but could equally have lost due to the lower right corner. I am especially curious about possible variations on the lower right corner, but any comment on the overall flow of the game will be highly appreciated. Thanks in advance. I played black, by the way... |
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| Author: | topazg [ Wed Feb 15, 2012 6:01 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: anyone care to comment? |
Black 185 @ S2 Black 35 at D7 then connect at 37. Black 35 could also be at F2, I think White 36 at K6 would be uncomfortable. Black 55 at K7 seems more reasonable shapewise. Black 57 and 59 seem too slow, the stones aren't that important, though at least I'd follow with 63 at O7 locally. It feels a bit too aggressive and greedy overall for Black. Like you were trying to harrass your opponents groups just because you could, instead of finding ways to develop your own points elsewhere. |
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| Author: | Stable [ Wed Feb 15, 2012 7:59 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: anyone care to comment? |
Hrm, I didn't really like b4, although it ended up alright for you. Taking the corner is a bit small given w got the influence on the right. Did you consider D9 or D10? I feel you only did so well in the middle because w was silly enough to play J3, which looks awful to me. Taking the corner and then immediately also the center is usually overplay. |
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| Author: | Bill Spight [ Wed Feb 15, 2012 8:44 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: anyone care to comment? |
Some joseki variations for the bottom right corner, and a couple of comments. Edit: It seems that is OK, per Uberdude. I have added a variation for .
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| Author: | Uberdude [ Wed Feb 15, 2012 12:18 pm ] | ||
| Post subject: | Re: anyone care to comment? | ||
Regarding the lower right, I disagree with Bill that q4 was bad. Yes it does play into hane at head of 2 stones, but it creates a cut at p5 which helps n4 a lot. Maybe Suzuki/Kitani is too old for this move? (First hit in GoGoD is Shuko in 1974, whilst the suggested r5 and s3 had been played for ages before, and the bad shape is perhaps why it was a blind spot before). The key mistake was the crude extension at n5 which is rather a thank you move as white is happy to play the o6 shape point and black then wants to play in 2 places at once: s4 to secure the corner and l4 to help the middle stones. Instead playing l4 directly is a fine technique, holding back on the n5 forcing move until needed. This shape is covered in the excellent book Beyond Forcing Moves (viewtopic.php?f=17&t=5150).
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| Author: | entropi [ Wed Feb 15, 2012 3:08 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: anyone care to comment? |
Thanks for the answers! A question about h4: I know h4 was risky but I felt I had to invade somehow. Both for utilising the aji of n4-n5 stones and because the complete white center felt too big to leave so easily. If I don't invade or reduce at that moment, it may get much more difficult very soon, making my move at n5 worse than pass. Does my point of view make sense or is it just typical kyu-mindset? Bill identified it as a desparation move and Stable said that my opponents mistake (j3) helped me to get away with it. I agree with that but what would be the correct answer to h4 from white? Or rather what would be my correct strategy to make use of n4-n5 stones and to deny white the whole center? |
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| Author: | Uberdude [ Wed Feb 15, 2012 3:39 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: anyone care to comment? |
The idea of n5 being a thank-you-move is something I only actually thought about in the last few months. It looks so nice and natural: after all it helps your cutting stone get more liberties in sente (and of course in some situations it is good). But sometimes leaning at m4 is a possibility (and of course this leaning does have a cost of strengthening that group) to strengthen your cutting stone in sente allowing you to then strike at the o6 shape point. The problem in this game is black also needs a move in the corner. But thanks to Beyond Forcing Moves I found the lean at n4 (move 27) in a rather similar shape of http://www.online-go.com/games/board.php?boardID=312800. o5 would just be a thank you move, white p6, and then black presses at m4 but it doesn't do much. Instead by leaning and taking a liberty from the n3 stones I make my followup on them when white decides he has to tenuki to the p6 shape point so much more severe with the double hane. Of course if white extended/haned at l3/l4 then I would strike at o6 and my reading was that pretty much killed those stones. |
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| Author: | Bill Spight [ Wed Feb 15, 2012 7:11 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: anyone care to comment? |
entropi wrote: Thanks for the answers! A question about h4: I know h4 was risky but I felt I had to invade somehow. Both for utilising the aji of n4-n5 stones and because the complete white center felt too big to leave so easily. If I don't invade or reduce at that moment, it may get much more difficult very soon, making my move at n5 worse than pass. Does my point of view make sense or is it just typical kyu-mindset? Bill identified it as a desparation move and Stable said that my opponents mistake (j3) helped me to get away with it. I agree with that but what would be the correct answer to h4 from white? Or rather what would be my correct strategy to make use of n4-n5 stones and to deny white the whole center? I think that technically the White framework cries out for reduction. (I have added a variation to the SGF file. ) However, Black is behind by a stone or so, since he is giving komi. With h4 you took a risk and it paid off. Black made three mistakes to get so far behind. First was getting the floating stones. Second was to compound the error by increasing White's thickness on the right side. Third was to let White make a deep valley by playing low on the left side. |
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