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| How do I keep my groups alive? http://www.lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=5842 |
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| Author: | FluffM [ Thu Apr 19, 2012 7:35 am ] |
| Post subject: | How do I keep my groups alive? |
Hi everyone, First time posting, long time lurker here. I've been steadily improving for the last six months or so but I seem to have hit a plateau at 8 kyu (KGS). I feel like my big stumbling block right now (aside from, oh I don't know, everything) is keeping groups alive and knowing when they're in danger. I lost the last two games I played thanks (in part) to this negligence. I'm working through the book Life and Death but it doesn't seem to be helping me much... for some reason I don't connect with Go books very well. Anyway, here's the game that I hoped someone could review for me. Thanks! |
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| Author: | Boidhre [ Thu Apr 19, 2012 7:53 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: How do I keep my groups alive? |
Two things have helped me, game reviews and tsumego, lots and lots of tsumego. Have you worked your way through many problem sets, be they in book form or online? Don't get me wrong, groups still die on me all the time but far less often than they did a month ago. 
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| Author: | FluffM [ Thu Apr 19, 2012 8:05 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: How do I keep my groups alive? |
Yeah, see, that's the thing. I have a couple books and have attempted a few problem sets from them but I get so bored so fast. I'd much rather be playing. All the progress I've made so far has been just from playing so every time I have a spare minute and say, "Time for go!", I need to choose between playing a game and sitting down with a book and trying to work out problems... 90% of the time I'll just play (and lose!) a game. I guess I just need more old fashioned discipline... |
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| Author: | Dokuganryu [ Thu Apr 19, 2012 8:12 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: How do I keep my groups alive? |
Lately t happens to me quite often, that I lose "a won game", because I don't bother myself with reading simple situations about the state of my groups, and suddenly from +20 points for me, the outcome is +20 for my oponnent. I don't know how it is in Your case, but for me it is just the fact that sometimes I "do bother myself" and sometimes "I don't bother myself" with reading some variations of the situation. Of course it isn't easy for us beginners to maintain focus for a whole game, especially when we think we are ahead, I guess it will come with experience... |
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| Author: | Boidhre [ Thu Apr 19, 2012 8:15 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: How do I keep my groups alive? |
FluffM wrote: Yeah, see, that's the thing. I have a couple books and have attempted a few problem sets from them but I get so bored so fast. I'd much rather be playing. All the progress I've made so far has been just from playing so every time I have a spare minute and say, "Time for go!", I need to choose between playing a game and sitting down with a book and trying to work out problems... 90% of the time I'll just play (and lose!) a game. I guess I just need more old fashioned discipline... I've found things like GoGrinder or one of the tsumego apps on the iPad or Android help a lot with keeping me interested. Having stats tracked for each pass through a set makes it far more interesting for me. Gamefication is a horrible buzzword but it is basically right, if you can see a little bar ticking showing your progress it helps a lot with motivation. If you've a "high score" to beat it's similar. I don't think I'd do half as much tsumego if I couldn't track my progress in doing them. That said, I enjoy logic puzzles so your mileage may vary. Maybe getting a couple of games reviewed might help you get over the plateau. I don't know. |
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| Author: | Twitchy Go [ Thu Apr 19, 2012 8:29 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: How do I keep my groups alive? |
Go problem apps is probably the best way to start with L&D. Smart Go is another nice app, the best part being the on the go nature.Bust out some problems next time your at the doctors or something. Also consider a book on tesuji. Seeing some of the unintuitive moves that work beautifully was what got me hooked on L&D. |
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| Author: | cyclops [ Thu Apr 19, 2012 8:44 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: How do I keep my groups alive? |
130 at L3 and you won´t never loose any groups anymore. |
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| Author: | hyperpape [ Thu Apr 19, 2012 8:54 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: How do I keep my groups alive? |
Well, in this game, you have a lot of time and you don't use it. You play the crucial moves 128-136 in less than thirty seconds in a game where you still have 17 + 5x:30 on the clock. So take your time. I doubt you'd have trouble seeing that the white group is in jeopardy if you played carefully. My next piece of advice is that you need to think about direction of play. It's easier to have your group never get in trouble in the first place than it is to find a magical way to save it. 130 is meaningless. The black group in the corner is alive, and can't be bullied. The white group on the left is alive, and has some influence towards the center. There's no territory for anyone in the lower left center (note that E8 is semi-forcing for White). So your priority should be either making your lower group live and/or doing something about the lower-right-center area. 130 does nothing about those issues. Lastly, kos require planning. You should only play 134 if you have a real threat planned. Otherwise, just connect, and Black is going to be in an awkward position. If you didn't recognize that the lower side White group was in danger, my advice would be (for slow games like this one) every time something changes in an area like this, ask yourself "is this group ok?" After 137, you should be able to see that L2 leaves white with just one eye. The only question is making sure you take the time to try and see it. |
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| Author: | FluffM [ Thu Apr 19, 2012 9:31 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: How do I keep my groups alive? |
hyperpape wrote: Well, in this game, you have a lot of time and you don't use it. You play the crucial moves 128-136 in less than thirty seconds in a game where you still have 17 + 5x:30 on the clock. So take your time. I doubt you'd have trouble seeing that the white group is in jeopardy if you played carefully. My next piece of advice is that you need to think about direction of play. It's easier to have your group never get in trouble in the first place than it is to find a magical way to save it. 130 is meaningless. The black group in the corner is alive, and can't be bullied. The white group on the left is alive, and has some influence towards the center. There's no territory for anyone in the lower left center (note that E8 is semi-forcing for White). So your priority should be either making your lower group live and/or doing something about the lower-right-center area. 130 does nothing about those issues. Lastly, kos require planning. You should only play 134 if you have a real threat planned. Otherwise, just connect, and Black is going to be in an awkward position. If you didn't recognize that the lower side White group was in danger, my advice would be (for slow games like this one) every time something changes in an area like this, ask yourself "is this group ok?" After 137, you should be able to see that L2 leaves white with just one eye. The only question is making sure you take the time to try and see it. Thanks for your help on this game! The bit about the ko is especially helpful because I somehow knew that I was getting into a ko fight but by extending upward instead of threatening somewhere else I let him do what I wanted to avoid: fill in! |
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| Author: | Bill Spight [ Thu Apr 19, 2012 2:20 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: How do I keep my groups alive? |
How about killing the Black group at move 190?
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| Author: | FluffM [ Thu Apr 19, 2012 4:34 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: How do I keep my groups alive? |
Bill Spight wrote: How about killing the Black group at move 190? How? By filling in at R13? |
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| Author: | jts [ Thu Apr 19, 2012 5:37 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: How do I keep my groups alive? |
FluffM wrote: Bill Spight wrote: How about killing the Black group at move 190? How? By filling in at R13? Nope, keep thinking. |
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| Author: | FluffM [ Fri Apr 20, 2012 3:17 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: How do I keep my groups alive? |
jts wrote: FluffM wrote: Bill Spight wrote: How about killing the Black group at move 190? How? By filling in at R13? Nope, keep thinking. Oh, T12, huh? That's the sort of move I wish I could see more quickly... 
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| Author: | jts [ Fri Apr 20, 2012 3:48 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: How do I keep my groups alive? |
FluffM wrote: jts wrote: FluffM wrote: How? By filling in at R13? Nope, keep thinking. Oh, T12, huh? That's the sort of move I wish I could see more quickly... For now, be grateful to see things slowly. Once you've practiced seeing slowly, then you'll start to see quickly. |
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| Author: | hyperpape [ Fri Apr 20, 2012 6:23 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: How do I keep my groups alive? |
Also at 190, or any number of moves after, if White plays at K2, he will have an attack on that Black group in the center, as well as ensuring that his own group doesn't die. It's hard for me to analyze. I believe the Black group in the center survives, possibly losing its "tail", but you should always give your opponent the chance to die. |
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| Author: | Toge [ Sat Apr 21, 2012 7:51 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: How do I keep my groups alive? |
FluffM wrote: Yeah, see, that's the thing. I have a couple books and have attempted a few problem sets from them but I get so bored so fast. I'd much rather be playing. All the progress I've made so far has been just from playing so every time I have a spare minute and say, "Time for go!", I need to choose between playing a game and sitting down with a book and trying to work out problems... 90% of the time I'll just play (and lose!) a game. I guess I just need more old fashioned discipline... - It really depends what your aims are. As you become stronger, the game becomes more like a puzzle. It's far more than just keeping groups alive. Being able to say "that corner becomes a 1-step ko" from just having a few stones placed there is what guides your strategy in the game as a whole. Aim of tsumego is to train that visualization engine, and it's a very effective way to gain strength in game. If you really just like to play Go, you don't need to bother with theory or anything of the sort. This game offers enjoyment regardless. |
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