Life In 19x19 :: 6 Stone Game Against IGS/YC 9D

cyclops wrote:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc $$ +------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . $$ | . . . . 2 . 4 . . $$ | . . O O 1 O . . . $$ | . . X X 3 X O 6 . $$ | . . . . . X 5 . . $$ | . . . . . . . . .[/go]

This joseki leaves little room for W to deviate. It gives B sente and a good wall towards his SW.

This joseki is good for white. White has a strong shape and a bigger share of the corner than he deserves. In a handicap game the black wall can even get attacked. It does have the advantage of being simple and maybe the loss black makes here per stone is lower than 6 stones / 150 moves (or whoever long you expect a game to last) so giving up a little bit for simplicity is enough to keep hold of the handicap advantage, but once you start compromising like this it is very easy to lose by 0.5 points.

Author:	illluck [ Thu Apr 19, 2012 6:29 pm ]
Post subject:	6 Stone Game Against IGS/YC 9D
So, I managed to get a game on DGS against a very strong player at 6 stones. I lost the game, but feels like I didn't make so many dumb mistakes as to make a review useless (or so I hope :p). I have added some comments myself to reveal more about what I had thought at the time and also hope they may be useful for weaker players. I would very much appreciate all comments from everyone (;GM[1]FF[4]CA[UTF-8]AP[CGoban:3]ST[2] RU[Japanese]SZ[19]HA[6]KM[6.50] GN[MaebaraK1-illluck-727108-20120420]PW[æ´åå¥³ (MaebaraK1)]PB[David Wang (illluck)]WR[6d]BR[2k]DT[2012-04-15,2012-04-20]GC[Game ID: 727108, rated]PC[Dragon Go Server: http://www.dragongoserver.net/]AB[dd][pd][dj][pj][dp][pp]RE[W+Resign]PL[W] ;W[nc]MN[1] ;B[jp]C[I don't really like any of the local responses, so decided to just tenuki.] ;W[fc] ;B[fd]C[I thought I should try to not let white get K16 so easily, but was too scared to pincer. I also wanted to get a result that makes sense with D10, so I decided to attach on top. If black had K16 the normal result from the attachment would hurt it, but here that's not an issue.] ;W[gd] ;B[fe] ;W[cc] ;B[cd] ;W[dc] ;B[gc]C[Saw this shape in the Topazg vs Sur Malkovich, and thought I was strong enough in area and have the ladder to play it.] ;W[ec] ;B[hd] ;W[ed] ;B[ee] ;W[de] (;B[ce]C[I considered also just giving way at D14, but thought D10 provided the support I need to save the two stones.] ;W[df] ;B[cf] ;W[cg] ;B[dg] ;W[ef] ;B[ff] ;W[eg] ;B[dh] ;W[fg] ;B[gg] ;W[fh] ;B[bg] ;W[gf] ;B[ge] ;W[hf] ;B[he]C[I didn't really like this move, but seems necessary because giving white this squeeze is too painful. At this point I was satisfied with the local result.] ;W[if] ;B[fb] ;W[eb] ;B[gb] ;W[bd] ;B[be] ;W[bc] ;B[kc] ;W[fj] ;B[dl] ;W[ke] ;B[oc]C[In hindsight, perhaps this is not right because after J17 I'm sort of squished inside and white gets M17 so doesn't need to respond to this kick. Perhaps I should just Q14 or R14 here?] ;W[ic] ;B[jd] ;W[id] ;B[ie] ;W[je] ;B[jc] ;W[ib] ;B[jb] ;W[lc] ;B[ia]C[I think I could have played M18 first, but not sure if it gains me anything if white just n18 in response.] ;W[kd] ;B[hb] ;W[kb] ;B[hc] ;W[qc] ;B[qd]C[This feels like only move because O17 is not weak.] ;W[ob] ;B[jj]C[I thought I might force a response to remove G13 aji here and then I can play something like O3. But later I couldn't find a way to draw out the G13 stone without hurting K10 XD] ;W[rc] ;B[nd] ;W[mb] (;B[pg]C[Not sure if this is needed - it seemed like white could try to separate Q16. At this point I considered trying to draw G13 out, but couldn't find a good sequence. Perhaps G11?] ;W[qn] ;B[qo] ;W[pn] ;B[np] ;W[qk] ;B[qj] ;W[pk] ;B[ok] ;W[ol] ;B[nl] ;W[rj] ;B[ri] ;W[qi] ;B[pi] ;W[rk] ;B[qh] ;W[nk] ;B[oj] ;W[om] ;B[lp]C[This felt secure, but perhaps I should have just played M3...] ;W[cq] ;B[cp] ;W[dq] ;B[eq] ;W[er] ;B[fr]C[I had thought that B4 variation didn't work for white and white can only take the ponnuki on the lower side.] (;W[bp] ;B[bo] ;W[co]C[I had thought with D8 and D10 I can forcefully resist, so I decided to not give the ponnuki on the left side.] (;B[do] ;W[bq] (;B[fp]C[This seems normal, but seems to actually be a mistake.] ;W[cn] ;B[bn] ;W[cm] ;B[bm] ;W[cl] ;B[bl]C[I realized my first reading mistake at this time (I was planning to C9, but realized that I had miscounted liberties). But then I thought I had enough liberties to keep chasing and kill either C7 or corner.] ;W[ck] ;B[bk] ;W[cj] (;B[ci]C[Pehaps B10 is worth considering - but at the time I was still under the illusion I can capture.] ;W[bj] ;B[aj]C[Here is when I realized that white can run out with E7/D6, but misread yet AGAIN and thought this reduced a crucial liberty when all it did was to make my C13 group even weaker T.T] ;W[bi] ;B[dk]C[Finally realizing that I am doomed.] ;W[em] ;B[fk] ;W[bh] ;B[ch] ;W[en] ;B[gk]C[So painful to have to live this way.] ;W[gn] ;B[dr] ;W[cr] ;B[es] ;W[ao] ;B[ro] ;W[hj] ;B[gi]C[I'm happy that I found this move, but maybe just running out would be better?] ;W[gh] ;B[fi] ;W[hh] ;B[gj] ;W[ij] ;B[ej]C[I have to admit I played this move because I was scared. I saw that white can reduce this group to one eye in gote and didn't want to leave the danger of white somehow sealing up the escape route to centre through threatening the bottom.] ;W[hq] ;B[iq]C[Even as I played this move I knew white is going to play L3 next, but I don't think I have much choice. H4 seems to leave too much room for moves like L3 anymores.] ;W[kq] ;B[jq] ;W[gq] ;B[ho]C[I was happy that I found this move and thought I managed to keep the game despite the series of misreads around B5.] ;W[oq]C[Another dilemma - to O3 or P4? In hindsight P4 is better (I can tell only because O3 failed rather badly).] (;B[nq] ;W[op] ;B[pq] ;W[or] ;B[oo] ;W[po] ;B[no] ;W[rq]C[I missed this completely - I thought white can only Q2 and I can R2.] ;B[pr] ;W[qp] ;B[qq]C[Again, I thought I was safe and can keep part of the corner in sente.] (;W[ps]C[I still didn't realize white's plan - but even if I had I'm past the point of no return.] ;B[rp] ;W[qr] ;B[qp] ;W[sr]C[T.T] ;B[rs] ;W[qs] ;B[nr] ;W[os] ;B[ns] ;W[rr] ;B[sq] ;W[sp] ;B[so] ;W[rn] ;B[sq] ;W[go]C[The worst part about this is that I'm not confident I know how to play this even without the ko complications. Still, I was optimistic because I had another illusion regarding ko threats.] ;B[gp] ;W[sp] ;B[bs]C[This turned out to hurt E3 - I thought white had to capture B5 and so I had like 4 threats.] ;W[cs]C[In hindsight this should have been obvious... I thought white wouldn't play this because black A2 worked, but it doesn't seem to?] (;B[sq] ;W[hp] ;B[io] ;W[sp] ;B[dm]C[This ended up hurting F4 again... But at the time I couldn't think of anything better. Perhaps just A2?] ;W[dn] ;B[sq] ;W[ir] ;B[jr] ;W[sp] ;B[ig]C[I liked this one because it also made the ladder at N9 work.] ;W[hg] ;B[sq] ;W[fq]C[But now I think I can no longer win the ko fight (and don't even really know how to save F2).] ;B[ss] ;W[hr] (;B[mk]C[Perhaps this should be at O7 instead. I was too happy with the ladder and didn't even consider that R6 possibly attackable.] ;W[nm] ;B[nj] ;W[rd] ;B[jg]C[This feels a bit off - perhaps I should just S15.] ;W[kg] ;B[kh] ;W[jf] ;B[lg] ;W[md] ;B[re] ;W[ne] ;B[qf]C[I know not what I'm doing at this point... I think white's actually already ahead now.] ;W[sn]C[Now I realize that perhaps I had something with T6.] ;B[kf] ;W[ih] ;B[pc] ;W[pb] ;B[ep] ;W[fo] ;B[gs] ;W[eo] ;B[er] ;W[gr] ;B[mm]C[Perhaps should be K9 here, but seems hard for black regardless.] ;W[jk] ;B[nf] ;W[mf] ;B[jl] ;W[ji] ;B[kj] ;W[il] ;B[mg] ;W[of] ;B[ng] ;W[pe] ;B[qe] ;W[kk]C[I thought white L11 first and then L8 if I M11, but this looks cleaner and white is solid ahead.] ;C[Result: W+Resign]N[RESULT]) (;B[nm]C[Seems a bit hard to read, but I think white has to spend a move to live?] ;W[mk] ;B[sn]C[Like this I'm not sure how white can live?])) (;B[ar] ;W[sn] (;B[ap] ;W[br] ;B[an] ;W[as]C[Ko again this way, but this ko already feels like a better result for white?]) (;B[aq] ;W[br] ;B[ds]C[Ko this way too.]))) (;W[rp] ;B[rr] ;W[ps] ;B[qr] ;W[rn] ;B[sq] ;W[so]C[The sequence I envisioned.])) (;B[op] ;W[nq] ;B[pq]C[Something like this? Not sure, but I didn't like the aji after P4.])) (;B[bj] ;W[ci] ;B[bi] ;W[ch] ;B[bh] ;W[ae] ;B[bf] ;W[em] ;B[dr]C[Maybe this?])) (;B[ep]C[Perhaps this way.] ;W[cn] ;B[bn] ;W[cm] ;B[bm] ;W[cl] ;B[bl] ;W[ck] ;B[bk] ;W[cj] ;B[ci] ;W[bj] ;B[bi] ;W[aj] ;B[dk]C[There is no weakness due to D4.])) (;B[ep]C[My last real chance to avoid diaster.] ;W[bn] ;B[bq] ;W[ao] ;B[br] ;W[ck]C[Something like this perhaps - I have to be careful about D13 group, but probably playable.])) (;W[fq] ;B[ep] ;W[gr] ;B[dr] ;W[fs] ;B[cr]C[My plan.])) (;B[gi] (;W[fi] ;B[gh]C[Maybe this?]) (;W[gh] ;B[fi]C[Or this?]))) (;B[df] ;W[ce] ;B[cf] ;W[bd] ;B[ge]C[Seems to also be playable, though white gets sizable corner, hane at b14, and j17 aji.]))

Author:	cyclops [ Fri Apr 20, 2012 9:16 am ]
Post subject:	Re: 6 Stone Game Against IGS/YC 9D
illluck wrote: I have added some comments myself to reveal more about what I had thought at the time and also hope they may be useful for weaker players. Very useful indeed. How these dan exploits all your weak points. It is a good lesson for me to prefer joseki above topaszeki Click Here To Show Diagram Code `[go]$$Bc $$ +------------------- $$ \| . . . . . . . . . $$ \| . . . . 2 . 4 . . $$ \| . . O O 1 O . . . $$ \| . . X X 3 X O 6 . $$ \| . . . . . X 5 . . $$ \| . . . . . . . . .[/go]` This joseki leaves little room for W to deviate. It gives B sente and a good wall towards his SW. He might want to repeat this joseki in the NE.It was a nice exercise to figure out the w's status on the right edge. But it seems killable. Out of modesty I won't try to review as I am too weak.

Author:	illluck [ Fri Apr 20, 2012 10:38 am ]
Post subject:	Re: 6 Stone Game Against IGS/YC 9D
Hehe, thanks for the comment Yes, that was my first instinct, but I think the cut is actually better on the board. White said that I played well in the beginning, so don't be afraid to try that cut out if you have the ladder and support on the left side!

Author:	mitsun [ Fri Apr 20, 2012 2:05 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: 6 Stone Game Against IGS/YC 9D
You did quite well in the opening, before things got too complicated. Then you lost after picking a difficult fight against an opponent 8 stones stronger than you . The best advice for a high handicap game like this is to find ways of avoiding such fights. Fight where you have a big advantage, but look for ways to compromise elsewhere. Some more specific comments: Move 28 could push once more at G12, before going back to capture at B13. Since you know the left side will be completely safe after B13, there is no harm in pushing W that way, and it strengthens your weaker group considerably. The attachment at move 44 helps W strengthen his weak stone. If W simply stood up at O16, were you planning to cut around N15? That seems unreasonable. So better just to extend around R14, without provoking W to strengthen himself. Or consider a slow but solid good shape move like M17, eliminating any opportunities for W to cause trouble around here. Move 50 is a do-or-die move which actually captures W, but if it did not, the game would be over. Consider compromising with the J18 nose tesuji. This allows W to capture one stone, but then B gets to squeeze and live easily, for a reasonable result. Move 60 is good, avoiding a difficult fight. But then B should follow-up at move 62 with the tesuji Q18, giving up the P17 stone to secure the corner. Move 66 is absolutely needed, to stabilize this group; nothing else on the board comes close in importance to this. Up to move 66, B has actually done quite well. Territory is fairly even, but B still has 4-5 handicap stones of extra thickness. The game fell apart after the LL corner invasion. B deliberately provoked a very difficult fight up to move 103, passing up several opportunities to get a simpler good result. At move 104, it is still not too late to block at C9, which I guess was your original intention, when you thought it captured W. But look a little deeper, this is still a great move -- it gets a perfect squeeze, forcing W to capture 3 stones in gote, while making immense outside thickness. Try playing this sequence out, then step back and look at the whole board. Do you really need to try for something better than that?

Author:	illluck [ Fri Apr 20, 2012 2:18 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: 6 Stone Game Against IGS/YC 9D
Thanks a lot for the comments! Move 28 at G12 is very nice! It seems so obvious after you pointed it out, but during the game I was somehow reluctant to let white extend one more time (not realizing that G12 also makes my stone more annoying). Yes, I regretted move 44. My plan was to keima if white extends up and be satisfied with an easier-to-deal-with sansan invasion. But even if white had extended up I think you are still right in that I should just keima without the kick to strengthen white. Yeah, I read move 50 out before I played it Q18 at move 62 I did consider. I decided to not play it because I didn't want white to get the ponnuki-shape in sente. Again, after you pointed it out it makes sense to just settle the corner You are once again spot on with the comment about 104 at C9. The issue was that I had misread the situation completely and thought I could just capture everything - my bloodthirst dominated what little prudence I had :p But I guess part of the issue there is just in my poor reading. Once again, thanks a lot for taking the time to make the comments p.s. I'm not sure if he is 8 stones stronger - I've hit KGS 4d today (though yet to win a game at 4d XD).

Life In 19x19 http://www.lifein19x19.com/

6 Stone Game Against IGS/YC 9D http://www.lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=5848	Page 1 of 1

Author:	Eizero [ Sun Apr 22, 2012 12:33 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: 6 Stone Game Against IGS/YC 9D
move 1 I'd just one space low pincer move 34 aji keshi no reason to play it now move 42 - no reason to respond just tenuki move 44 - yeah i agree this is bad, it strengthens white move 46 attach under seems okay white can't do sac tesuji that way move 62 tengen seems weird move 74 hane underneath instead because at move 82 your ponnuki looks overconcentrated move 86 slow, too fearful. move 96 i agree with the variation e4 move 132 this is bad, you can't die here. move 140 p4 variation looks good rest of game: too lazy to write comments summary: It never felt like white was being attacked at any part of the game. The whole point of handicap games is to pressure white, to attack him/her viciously.

Author:	Uberdude [ Sun Apr 22, 2012 2:25 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: 6 Stone Game Against IGS/YC 9D
cyclops wrote: Click Here To Show Diagram Code `[go]$$Bc $$ +------------------- $$ \| . . . . . . . . . $$ \| . . . . 2 . 4 . . $$ \| . . O O 1 O . . . $$ \| . . X X 3 X O 6 . $$ \| . . . . . X 5 . . $$ \| . . . . . . . . .[/go]` This joseki leaves little room for W to deviate. It gives B sente and a good wall towards his SW. This joseki is good for white. White has a strong shape and a bigger share of the corner than he deserves. In a handicap game the black wall can even get attacked. It does have the advantage of being simple and maybe the loss black makes here per stone is lower than 6 stones / 150 moves (or whoever long you expect a game to last) so giving up a little bit for simplicity is enough to keep hold of the handicap advantage, but once you start compromising like this it is very easy to lose by 0.5 points. P.S. What does YC mean in title?

Author:	illluck [ Sun Apr 22, 2012 2:37 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: 6 Stone Game Against IGS/YC 9D
Thanks a lot for the comments, Eizero. The comment about contact underneath at 46 is especially illuminating - seems a lot better than game result, I didn't play it because I missed the sacrifice. @Uber: YiCheng, Chinese client for Tygem, I think (Tom used to be connected to Tygem too if I remember correctly, but it separated out a while back).

Author:	cyclops [ Mon Apr 23, 2012 6:43 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: 6 Stone Game Against IGS/YC 9D
Uberdude wrote: cyclops wrote: Click Here To Show Diagram Code `[go]$$Bc $$ +------------------- $$ \| . . . . . . . . . $$ \| . . . . 2 . 4 . . $$ \| . . O O 1 O . . . $$ \| . . X X 3 X O 6 . $$ \| . . . . . X 5 . . $$ \| . . . . . . . . .[/go]` This joseki leaves little room for W to deviate. It gives B sente and a good wall towards his SW. This joseki is good for white. White has a strong shape and a bigger share of the corner than he deserves. In a handicap game the black wall can even get attacked. It does have the advantage of being simple and maybe the loss black makes here per stone is lower than 6 stones / 150 moves (or whoever long you expect a game to last) so giving up a little bit for simplicity is enough to keep hold of the handicap advantage, but once you start compromising like this it is very easy to lose by 0.5 points. I got my information from Ishida's Dictionary of Basic Joseki ( III, p 131, diagram 50 ) who states that this joseki is ok for black if D10 is black especially in handicap games. I assume it is even more ok here because D4 and K4 are black. But I am not the type that refers to the Bible to justify my statements. Maybe you and OP are correct that the game is better for black than this joseki.

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