KGS DDK Review

judicata · #1

I greatly appreciate any helpful feedback, even if you're a DDK too

. I've gone on a nice winning streak after losing this game, but it was a tough one and I think might be useful for review. I have a few specific questions about this game (I played black):

(1) Should B25 been around D8? This question and the next relates to my struggle with using thickness/walls appropriately.
(2) It now seems to me that B27 wasn't a good way to attack W26. But something like C11 or D11 feels inefficient. Where am I wrong here?
(3) I honestly don't know what I was thinking with B51, maybe that it was facing a lot of black stones on the upper part of the board, but it feels bad. What do you do here, approach at O3 or something?
(4) Not a question, but a comment: I really need to count territory. I thought I had a decent chance when W missed the snapback at 149.

(5) Any way to invade the lower right? If not, when did B miss that chance?

- Thank you - again, I really appreciate feedback.

Chew Terr · #2

Just a couple of thoughts.

Both B25 and B49 occur immediately after building a huge wall. Immediately after you build a huge wall, you want to do something that works with it. If you extend (remember to go far away, you're not trying to directly make territory), you're playing a stone that works beautifully with the wall. Yes, B25 around D8 would have worked a lot better, or even further, around C6. Remember, though, that you're not making the space between your territory. You're daring your opponent to jump in, so that you can start attacking him. Don't expect to kill, but in the process of chasing him, you'll be building strong groups elsewhere on the board. Similarly, B49 is exactly the same position. Build a strong wall and then extend most of the way down the board, lest your opponent start neutralizing your thickness (which he did immediately both times).

B51 has a good idea. This is the biggest open area on the board, so you're likely to find the biggest move in that area. This move (or better, because it's safer, K3), you prevent your opponent from making much framework in the south, because you're already there. Then, if he approaches from one direction, you can extend in the other direction for safety. If you did exactly what you did, but on the third line, you'd have started with some good eyespace and not been forced to run as much (and likely not needed that snapback to live)

You asked where you missed the chance to invade the bottom right. I think that B55 would be a good time. Generally, once my opponent has extended in both directions from a corner, I start thinking about taking the corner away with a 3-3 invasion. You invade at B55 higher up the right side, but I would rather take the corner in safety than jump into his shape and fight. Especially because his stone on the side can jump two spaces north, greatly improving his safety. Chasing your weak stone here is what made his corner so big.

mitsun · #3

Up to move 25, B got a good result. I think H13, completing the enclosure of the W group, is worth a full move, although a long extension from the B wall would also be good.

If B decides to extend, how far should he go?

The first consideration is that B must extend far enough to avoid over-concentration, if W approaches from the outside. In this position, if B extends to C10 and W later approaches at C8 (or forces at D9), B definitely gets too little territory, considering his starting thickness. So B must extend at least as far as {CD}{89}.

An argument can be made for extending even further, so that the extension also serves as an approach to the W corner. From this point of view, moves {CD}{67} look quite playable. B is hoping W will respond somewhere around F3, so that B can then come back to defend around D9, completing a nice framework. Of course B must be willing to fight if W counter-pincers, instead of extending peacefully from the corner.

Back to the game, the W approach at C10 is too close to the B wall, and the B response at C8 is entirely appropriate and good. This is the proper way for B to make use of his thickness. B should politely thank W for his assistance.

If W decides to approach, how far should he go?

The first consideration is that W should hold back far enough to allow a comfortable two-space extension, if B attacks with a pincer from the outside. In this position, that means going no further than C9, leaving room to extend to c12.

The second consideration is that W need go no further than necessary to make B over-concentrated, if B secures territory by playing inside. In this position, C8 would therefore be reasonable for W, since he would be happy if B settled for limited C10 territory.

An argument could also be made for W holding back to C7, since that works nicely as a corner enclosure, although it lets B enclose significant territory with C9. This would probably be a fair exchange for both sides.

Magicwand · #4

what is the meaning of 59????
other mistakes are understandable for kyu level.

think about your move. why?????
it is not attacking anything.
no points gained and
over over concentration.
this move had no meaning otherthan throwing a stone in the middle of your influence.

Dusk Eagle · #5

I believe you were trying to attack his two white stones with move 59, were you not? Unfortunately, this is the wrong direction. Your stones on the other side are incredibly weak, so you should be playing a dual-purpose move of attacking and defending with them (I would play P9, but what do I know?). You will also hopefully be able to drive him toward your thickness, not away from it.

Because of this mistake in direction, white was able to profit all along the bottom by attacking your weak group. It was quite a costly mistake. There is also the problem that your group on the bottom-left is weak - your opponent played a bad-shape move with 54, but you didn't respond at G3, which would strengthen your group and emphasize the foolishness of his move. You actually played this properly back at move 9 - good job

. Any move like 54 is bad shape, and the correct answer is almost always to play down. His left corner would even still be invadeable

. He should have played E3 instead, which is a better attacking move (remember: to attack, don't touch! Touching is for settling) and also would secured the majority of the corner.

I actually prefered your play vs your opponent's up to move 51.

Good job on move 27 - :w26:

is too close to thickness. Note the aji that exists in his position after 28, once you have sealed his group in.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B One possible eye-stealing sequence, once you have sealed him in. $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . 5 7 1 2 . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . X . O 3 6 O . X . . . . . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . 4 . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |[/go]

Move 51 is more normally on the third line, making it easier to settle and not leaving as big of an open skirt underneath.
Move 53 would be better at F3: this is a more natural approach to his corner stone, and would also have a decent relation with your K4 stone.
55 is not an urgent move, and could easily be at R6, Q6, or Q3 when you do play around there. (What Chew said about invading the 3-3 is good

)
Moves like 71 are wrong, especially when they hurt your bottom group as this one did.
Move 153 is a pass and you lose a point. Since you mentioned snapback already, I assume you can see this.

Overall, your two weak groups on the bottom really hurt you this game. Move 59, letting him strengthen his own semi-weak group without strengthening yours, especially hurt you.

Magicwand · #6

Dusk Eagle wrote:

I believe you were trying to attack his two white stones with move 59, were you not? Unfortunately, this is the wrong direction. Your stones on the other side are incredibly weak, so you should be playing a dual-purpose move of attacking and defending with them (I would play P9, but what do I know?). You will also hopefully be able to drive him toward your thickness, not away from it.

Because of this mistake in direction, white was able to profit all along the bottom by attacking your weak group. It was quite a costly mistake. There is also the problem that your group on the bottom-left is weak - your opponent played a bad-shape move with 54, but you didn't respond at G3, which would strengthen your group and emphasize the foolishness of his move. You actually played this properly back at move 9 - good job

. Any move like 54 is bad shape, and the correct answer is almost always to play down. His left corner would even still be invadeable

. He should have played E3 instead, which is a better attacking move (remember: to attack, don't touch! Touching is for settling) and also would secured the majority of the corner.

I actually prefered your play vs your opponent's up to move 51.

Good job on move 27 - :w26:

is too close to thickness. Note the aji that exists in his position after 28, once you have sealed his group in.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B One possible eye-stealing sequence, once you have sealed him in. $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . 5 7 1 2 . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . X . O 3 6 O . X . . . . . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . 4 . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |[/go]

Move 51 is more normally on the third line, making it easier to settle and not leaving as big of an open skirt underneath.
Move 53 would be better at F3: this is a more natural approach to his corner stone, and would also have a decent relation with your K4 stone.
55 is not an urgent move, and could easily be at R6, Q6, or Q3 when you do play around there. (What Chew said about invading the 3-3 is good

)
Moves like 71 are wrong, especially when they hurt your bottom group as this one did.
Move 153 is a pass and you lose a point. Since you mentioned snapback already, I assume you can see this.

Overall, your two weak groups on the bottom really hurt you this game. Move 59, letting him strengthen his own semi-weak group without strengthening yours, especially hurt you.

to dusteagle: i respect your go knowledge but...
this time i beg to differ. in some cases such attack is sharp and needed.
but my experience tells me that kind of attack is usually wrong and one demensional and usually unsuccessful.
most of time you have to find some other means of attack which is litter deeper than above diag.

Dusk Eagle · #7

Yes, I rarely play that diagram as well, but when I was a DDK, I was under the impression that "the two-space extension is near-immune". This may not be the best way to play, but it certainly demonstrates the weaknesses in the shape. I thought it was playable assuming that you had already sealed your opponent in, but I very well could be wrong.

topazg · #8

Dusk Eagle wrote:

Yes, I rarely play that diagram as well, but when I was a DDK, I was under the impression that "the two-space extension is near-immune". This may not be the best way to play, but it certainly demonstrates the weaknesses in the shape. I thought it was playable assuming that you had already sealed your opponent in, but I very well could be wrong.

I don't believe White would ever play "2" in your diagram. There is little point on blocking on this side, because the top right is Black's. Simply block on top and leave it as Black's privelege to escape. That way, a lighter form of developing towards the middle makes a happier White:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$B White cares not for his stolen eyes $$ +---------------------------------------+ $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . 3 1 . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . X . O . 2 O . X . . . . . | $$ | . . X , . . . . . . . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . 4 . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . |[/go]

judicata · #9

Thanks all for the replies - I am very grateful and look forward to reviewing games when someone weaker posts one for review

.

I was trying to attack (or at least put pressure on) white with 59. I probably also thought that the upper right group wasn't yet "thick" and could become heavy very quickly. But, of course, I see now that the lower group was in more trouble.

It is encouraging that I handled the wall on the upper left "okay" with my play at C8. Funny, because I didn't feel great about it at the time or when I posted the game, but I forgot that part of the board turned out very well for me (not that white couldn't have done better). I'm still struggling with thickness, but I think my intuition is moving in the right direction.

I should have invaded on the third line, but I felt that was too "deep." Looking back, the fourth line isn't really less "deep" and it has less room for eyes, so... yeah, third line next time.

topazg · **#10**

judicata wrote:

I was trying to attack (or at least put pressure on) white with 59. I probably also thought that the upper right group wasn't yet "thick" and could become heavy very quickly. But, of course, I see now that the lower group was in more trouble.

Generally, if you wish to attack like this, you want to push the group into any thickness you have - so here for example, something like P9 is the right direction (and it helps your lower group too!)

Dusk Eagle · **#11**

Glad you found us helpful, judicata!

Topazg: Let's not forget, I'm talking about a board position that looks like this:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X O . . . . O O X . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X O . O . . O X . . . . W . . . . . | $$ | . . X O . . . X X , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . X . O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . a X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

In this case, there is bad aji at white 'a', which white can utilize to help him live.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Wc It's hard to call white dead with this aji still sitting here. $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X O . . . . O O X . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X O . O . . O X . . . . W . . . . . | $$ | . . X O . . . X X , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . X . O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . 4 6 7 X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 1 X 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 2 3 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

So, playing :b1:

here seems to make sense, and nearly kill white. However, if white responds at :w2:

, and black plays elsewhere, white can threaten to bridge under by playing at :w4:

, and this aji should be enough to help him live.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc If B5 at 6, W6 at 'a' is one possiblity $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X O . . . . O O X . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X O . O . . O X . . . . W 3 . . . . | $$ | . . X O . . . X X , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . X . O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . a . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . 4 . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 6 X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | 8 1 7 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 2 O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

So, black should probably play another move in the area.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X O . . . . O O X . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X O . O . . O X . . . . W . . . . . | $$ | . . X O . . . X X , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . X . O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 3 5 . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 4 O , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 2 O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc Topazg's variation doesn't make much sense here. $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X O . . . . O O X . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X O . O . . O X . . . . W . . . . . | $$ | . . X O . . . X X , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . X . O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 5 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 3 4 . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 1 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 2 O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

If you're worried that white will be able to live with his group by playing :w2:

somewhere inside his weak group to make eyes (I don't think he can personally), and the compensation you get from :b1:

won't be enough to satisfy you, you could also play this :b1:

instead.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$Bc $$ --------------------------------------- $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X O . . . . O O X . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . X O . O . . O X . . . . W . . . . . | $$ | . . X O . . . X X , . . . . . X . . . | $$ | . . X . O O O . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . X X X . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 4 O 9 . . . X . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 3 5 6 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . 8 7 X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . 2 O , . . . . . , . . . . . , . . . | $$ | . 1 . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . X . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . O . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . . O . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . | $$ ---------------------------------------[/go]

I think my moves are all very reasonable plays given the fact that white is sealed in.

Judicata: You don't actually have to study all these diagrams. If you can simply see that white has aji to still live or connect under, but that his group is currently very weak, than this post is a success. This is probably a bit complex though

- I wouldn't know what I am currently talking about back when I was a 10k.

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