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exterminated on tygem
http://www.lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=6443		 Page 1 of 1
Author:  otenki [ Sun Aug 05, 2012 8:19 am ]
Post subject:  exterminated on tygem
Hey guys,

I play a lot on tygem these days because I want to learn how to fight more.
I've gotten to 15k and this seems to be my rating here.
I almost don't dare to post this game as I lost really bad but I really want to understand where I should start to learn more.
I've been over the game by myself but I could not really get anything out of it except that maybe i was a bit too aggressive.
Any sugestions ?
Author:  EdLee [ Sun Aug 05, 2012 9:39 am ]
Post subject: 
otenki wrote:
Any sugestions ?
Yes. All your basics. Basic broken shapes.
Author:  Joaz Banbeck [ Sun Aug 05, 2012 10:44 am ]
Post subject:  Re: exterminated on tygem
Trying to learn attacking from kyu players on Tygem may teach you how to attack, but not when to do so. :lol:

You have the right spirit for attacking :clap: , but the wrong order. It is supposed to be "get strong, then attack", not "attack, then try to get strong". In much of this game your attacking groups found themselves struggling for life soon after they commenced the attack.

One example: On move 16, you attack with C12, but your stones on D11/D10 are not strong enough yet.

Another example: On move 82, you attack with the cut at O9, but your center stones are weaker than the group that you are attacking.


PS: I like the penguin :clap:
Author:  otenki [ Mon Aug 06, 2012 12:21 am ]
Post subject:  Re:
@edlee:

Thanks for your shape problem check. It reminds me to focus on shape which would make a big difference here.

@Joaz Banbeck:

You are right, I should try to make my groups stronger before attacking.

Usualy I don't know when a group is strong or not though. Does strong mean that it needs the ability to create eyespace ? Or just that it has miai to run or live ? I don't want to create eyespace for all my groups because otherwise I might miss the oportunity to kill my oponents groups. Should I instead not care about killing and just let it live while creating a strong group for myself ? It feels as if I would be loosing too much teritory this way.

The next problem(actualy I think it is the same problem) is that I realy don't know what overplay is. As soon as I see some group attacking out the blue my framework I have the feeling i need to kill him. Sometimes I suceed but usualy I don't and create a mess of the board just because of this. (as is apparent in the game that I posted) But if instead I just play defensive moves he will get much more than he should get out of it. Is there any way to learn what is overplay and what is not overplay ? Or is this totaly irrelevant and should I just play a solid moves anyway and start attacking afterwards whether it is overplay or not ?

I really think this is one of my big weaknesses at the moment, thx for getting me in the right direction.

Thanks,
Otenki
Author:  SpongeBob [ Mon Aug 06, 2012 12:39 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Re:
Yeah, like the avatar, too!
otenki wrote:
Usualy I don't know when a group is strong or not though. Does strong mean that it needs the ability to create eyespace ? Or just that it has miai to run or live ? I don't want to create eyespace for all my groups because otherwise I might miss the oportunity to kill my oponents groups. Should I instead not care about killing and just let it live while creating a strong group for myself ? It feels as if I would be loosing too much teritory this way.

Your group is weak if your opponent can attack it. Normally, if you have miai for running or creating a second eye, your group is ok. Your focus should not be on killing your opponents groups. That is because killing a group is a task very hard to accomplish. Instead, you should attack it and make sure that you profit from your attack. That means basically every move that you make while attacking should give you something. If another attacking move does not give you further profit, don't play it. You would only make your opponent stronger or waste the chance to play a DIFFERENT attacking move later.

Good luck!
Author:  EdLee [ Mon Aug 06, 2012 4:22 am ]
Post subject: 
otenki wrote:
Usualy I don't know when a group is strong or not though.
I realy don't know what overplay is.
Both very good questions and both very difficult.

- The "health" of a group has to do with things like: its shape (eyespace, life-and-death), whether it can settle easily,
whether it can run away (or connect to a friendly group). If you can determine the status of a group,
then you can decide what to do with it. Sometimes, the status of a group is not clear.
Sometimes, even if there's a weak enemy group, it's unclear how to attack it for profit.
To improve in this area, we want to improve our basics: life-and-death, basic shapes, basic tesuji, etc.

- Overplay. To improve our understanding here, we also work on our basics.
(The same: life-and-death, basic shapes, basic tesuji, etc.)

Actually, for many of us amateurs, especially for kyu levels, it is all in the basics.

Continue to play serious games and request reviews here (or on KGS).
Author:  Shaddy [ Mon Aug 06, 2012 8:35 am ]
Post subject:  Re: exterminated on tygem
I always interpreted 'get strong before attacking' as 'get thick before attacking', and to me that means that there shouldn't be many forcing moves against my groups (well, it's ok if there are some that force me to consolidate my territory). That way, when you attack, your opponent is either going to have a hell of a time making shape or giving you free territory.
Author:  otenki [ Mon Aug 06, 2012 11:02 am ]
Post subject:  Re: exterminated on tygem
Hey guys,

Thanks all for the help already !
I played a new game just now and tried to make my groups strong before attacking.
Appart from the fact that I won, was this more the way I should be playing with my groups ?



Thanks,
Otenki
Author:  lemmata [ Mon Aug 06, 2012 2:27 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: exterminated on tygem
I only have a few short comments about the first few moves.
I think that KGS SDKs are stronger than Tygem SDKs...if they are able to maintain their calm. That's completely subjective though.

EDIT: Also, your avatar is pretty darn cool. Penguin playing go?

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Author:  EdLee [ Mon Aug 06, 2012 3:02 pm ]
Post subject: 
Author:  Joaz Banbeck [ Mon Aug 06, 2012 4:58 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: exterminated on tygem
The second one is a much better game. There were one or two overly ambitious plays - notably in the upper right - but mostly you attacked when you were strong. Not suprisingly, you won. :bow:

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