Life In 19x19 :: 9x9 game: where did I go wrong?

For

, would g5 be better?

(1) I think White would play f5, which looks OK for both: Black has territory, White has influence. It could go anywhere though.

(2) Well... c5, c6 and c7 all look good. I slightly prefer c6 as it covers the upper left corner while still working with c3.

4 is a local shape issue: what do you do when two stones are next to each other?

8 is a move that reduces your own liberties. If you thought you needed that extra space for eye shape, why didn't you just hane on the top side instead?

I want to respond to your question about 10 though: should you see the danger to the corner? No, not as a life and death problem. Instead, you should see that 10 gives white a sente move to create 2 cutting points. Is this dangerous? Not immediately (though it's probably already closer than you think), but later you will very likely have to fix it.

From reading a couple of your threads I think you might be overthinking a little =).

There is nothing necessarily wrong with that: It shows your dedication to learning the game. However, you shouldn't give abstract concepts too much importance at this stage. Stuff like influence is something you (and I) have only a slight idea about, and it doesn't really apply on a 9x9 board. At this point your game is going to improve the most by simply learning to spot tactical blunders to the point you can consistently avoid them (such as the shape at the top right, which as you pointed out cost you the game).

That said, keep on studying! Just... Don't reflect on particular games too much, specially on 9x9. Spend that time playing more and more games instead. That will sharpen your instinct until you're solid enough to actually start understanding and applying concepts.

peppernut wrote:

4 is a local shape issue: what do you do when two stones are next to each other?

I'm not sure... probably play in an empty corner. I just wanted to avoid ending up with a dead L-group in the corner that I had in another recent game.

I played

to stop White playing there - it is all too concentrated, isn't it?

Stones that are touching each other require immediate attention. Look up the saying "hane at the head of 2". This is an idea about local shape, it has nothing to do with the shape in the corner.

"Too concentrated" is a general kind of intuitive idea. Look instead at the tactics. If :w9:

, you just connect. If you are worried about life then play at F7 instead. That's a good move that secures the corner and makes it bigger. :b8:

is the kind of move you only make when forced to, in order to live. And "forced to" as in, I'll play there and then create the eyes immediately or else my group dies. Not the case here.

Spend that time playing more and more games instead.

Ideally I want to find my biggest mistake in each game, then fix it in my mind so I do not repeat it.

I have played about 60-70 on 9x9, and about 5 on 19x19.

Ideally I want to find my biggest mistake in each game, then fix it in my mind so I do not repeat it. In a lot of my games, the tactical error is obvious and I quickly move on. Other times (like this game) it is not obvious to me which single move lost the game ...

Author:	PeterPeter [ Tue Oct 09, 2012 3:51 am ]
Post subject:	9x9 game: where did I go wrong?
Obviously the outcome in the upper right corner lost me the game, but I cannot put my finger on the bad move which allowed it to happen, as before w25 that corner looked safe (enough eye space, and an escape route along the top of the board). I don’t think was a good move, but should I have seen the danger in the upper right corner that early? Should I have seen the danger after , instead of playing elsewhere? I also see now that would have been better at h7, though I still would have lost most of my territory in that corner.

Author:	EdLee [ Tue Oct 09, 2012 3:52 am ]
Post subject:
Find a better move for , and for .

Author:	PeterPeter [ Tue Oct 09, 2012 4:02 am ]
Post subject:	Re: 9x9 game: where did I go wrong?
Are they too concentrated? That corner looks a little vulnerable without them? For , would g5 be better?

Author:	EdLee [ Tue Oct 09, 2012 4:06 am ]
Post subject:
PeterPeter wrote: For , would g5 be better? (1) Whether at G5 is better or not depends on your follow-ups -- you need to show your variations. (2) See if you can find a move better than G5 for .

Author:	PeterPeter [ Tue Oct 09, 2012 4:21 am ]
Post subject:	Re: 9x9 game: where did I go wrong?
(1) I think White would play f5, which looks OK for both: Black has territory, White has influence. It could go anywhere though. (2) Well... c5, c6 and c7 all look good. I slightly prefer c6 as it covers the upper left corner while still working with c3.

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9x9 game: where did I go wrong? http://www.lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=6924	Page 1 of 2

Author:	Falcord [ Tue Oct 09, 2012 5:21 am ]
Post subject:	Re: 9x9 game: where did I go wrong?
PeterPeter wrote: (1) I think White would play f5, which looks OK for both: Black has territory, White has influence. It could go anywhere though. (2) Well... c5, c6 and c7 all look good. I slightly prefer c6 as it covers the upper left corner while still working with c3. From reading a couple of your threads I think you might be overthinking a little =). There is nothing necessarily wrong with that: It shows your dedication to learning the game. However, you shouldn't give abstract concepts too much importance at this stage. Stuff like influence is something you (and I) have only a slight idea about, and it doesn't really apply on a 9x9 board. At this point your game is going to improve the most by simply learning to spot tactical blunders to the point you can consistently avoid them (such as the shape at the top right, which as you pointed out cost you the game). That said, keep on studying! Just... Don't reflect on particular games too much, specially on 9x9. Spend that time playing more and more games instead. That will sharpen your instinct until you're solid enough to actually start understanding and applying concepts.

Author:	jts [ Tue Oct 09, 2012 5:41 am ]
Post subject:	Re: 9x9 game: where did I go wrong?
The bad move that allowed the disaster in the upper right corner is pretty easy to find. Make a guess!

Author:	PeterPeter [ Tue Oct 09, 2012 5:56 am ]
Post subject:	Re: 9x9 game: where did I go wrong?
I can pick out as being wrong, but it had already started going badly by that point. I guess I should have connected g7 and f8 earlier, and looks like the first good opportunity to do that.

Author:	peppernut [ Tue Oct 09, 2012 6:01 am ]
Post subject:	Re: 9x9 game: where did I go wrong?
As Ed says, 4 and 8 are bigger mistakes than 10. 4 is a local shape issue: what do you do when two stones are next to each other? 8 is a move that reduces your own liberties. If you thought you needed that extra space for eye shape, why didn't you just hane on the top side instead? I want to respond to your question about 10 though: should you see the danger to the corner? No, not as a life and death problem. Instead, you should see that 10 gives white a sente move to create 2 cutting points. Is this dangerous? Not immediately (though it's probably already closer than you think), but later you will very likely have to fix it.

Author:	jts [ Tue Oct 09, 2012 6:10 am ]
Post subject:	Re: 9x9 game: where did I go wrong?
"Badly" is in the eye of the beholder. Finding other mistakes on other parts of the board is helpful too, but it's important to see that if instead of connecting at H6 you play connect at H8, white has not made too much progress with ; a 4 point reduction, perhaps. Certainly your move was worth far more than 4 points. Sometimes you leave weaknesses in your position by mistake, and other times you leave weaknesses in your position on purpose, because defending the weakness is too slow. Whether it's a goof or a planned sacrifice, once your opponent has made use of the weakness, you can't be unreasonable. You were able to play a move (maybe several moves) elsewhere, and profited on another part of the board; now he takes a small profit here. When you leave a real weakness and try to keep everything, that's when disasters happen.

Author:	PeterPeter [ Tue Oct 09, 2012 6:28 am ]
Post subject:	Re: 9x9 game: where did I go wrong?
peppernut wrote: 4 is a local shape issue: what do you do when two stones are next to each other? I'm not sure... probably play in an empty corner. I just wanted to avoid ending up with a dead L-group in the corner that I had in another recent game. peppernut wrote: 8 is a move that reduces your own liberties. If you thought you needed that extra space for eye shape, why didn't you just hane on the top side instead? I played to stop White playing there - it is all too concentrated, isn't it? peppernut wrote: I want to respond to your question about 10 though: should you see the danger to the corner? No, not as a life and death problem. Instead, you should see that 10 gives white a sente move to create 2 cutting points. Is this dangerous? Not immediately (though it's probably already closer than you think), but later you will very likely have to fix it. I did see White's cutting move coming next, but I thought I had enough stones in the neighbourhood to make a safe connection on f8... it wasn't as safe as I thought.

Author:	PeterPeter [ Tue Oct 09, 2012 9:34 am ]
Post subject:	Re: 9x9 game: where did I go wrong?
Falcord wrote: From reading a couple of your threads I think you might be overthinking a little =). There is nothing necessarily wrong with that: It shows your dedication to learning the game. However, you shouldn't give abstract concepts too much importance at this stage. Stuff like influence is something you (and I) have only a slight idea about, and it doesn't really apply on a 9x9 board. At this point your game is going to improve the most by simply learning to spot tactical blunders to the point you can consistently avoid them (such as the shape at the top right, which as you pointed out cost you the game). That said, keep on studying! Just... Don't reflect on particular games too much, specially on 9x9. Spend that time playing more and more games instead. That will sharpen your instinct until you're solid enough to actually start understanding and applying concepts. I hear what you are saying. I don't want to fall into the other trap of playing many casual games but not taking away anything from them. Ideally I want to find my biggest mistake in each game, then fix it in my mind so I do not repeat it. In a lot of my games, the tactical error is obvious and I quickly move on. Other times (like this game) it is not obvious to me which single move lost the game, and this thread shows that my original ideas were a bit off-target. So sometimes I need a bit of time to understand what went wrong and why, before I move on.

Author:	peppernut [ Tue Oct 09, 2012 10:19 am ]
Post subject:	Re: 9x9 game: where did I go wrong?
PeterPeter wrote: peppernut wrote: 4 is a local shape issue: what do you do when two stones are next to each other? I'm not sure... probably play in an empty corner. I just wanted to avoid ending up with a dead L-group in the corner that I had in another recent game. Stones that are touching each other require immediate attention. Look up the saying "hane at the head of 2". This is an idea about local shape, it has nothing to do with the shape in the corner. PeterPeter wrote: I played to stop White playing there - it is all too concentrated, isn't it? "Too concentrated" is a general kind of intuitive idea. Look instead at the tactics. If at , you just connect. If you are worried about life then play at F7 instead. That's a good move that secures the corner and makes it bigger. is the kind of move you only make when forced to, in order to live. And "forced to" as in, I'll play there and then create the eyes immediately or else my group dies. Not the case here.

Author:	PeterPeter [ Tue Oct 09, 2012 10:50 am ]
Post subject:	Re: 9x9 game: where did I go wrong?
peppernut wrote: Stones that are touching each other require immediate attention. Look up the saying "hane at the head of 2". This is an idea about local shape, it has nothing to do with the shape in the corner. I'm not sure I understand. At the time was played, White did not have 2 stones in a line. Are you recommending a hane at f5? peppernut wrote: "Too concentrated" is a general kind of intuitive idea. Look instead at the tactics. If at , you just connect. If you are worried about life then play at F7 instead. That's a good move that secures the corner and makes it bigger. is the kind of move you only make when forced to, in order to live. And "forced to" as in, I'll play there and then create the eyes immediately or else my group dies. Not the case here. OK, got it.

Author:	EdLee [ Tue Oct 09, 2012 3:14 pm ]
Post subject:
PeterPeter wrote: I have played about 60-70 on 9x9, and about 5 on 19x19. Thanks. Continue to play. Try some 13x13. For my first feeling was F5. (There are possibly multiple good moves.) For many people, especially those with very few finished games, actual experience is very valuable. So valuable, in fact, that just finishing more games is more beneficial to any reviews, to hints, to answers. Just play more. (Think of a baby learning to crawl or to walk -- all "instructions" and "reviews" to the baby pale in comparison to JUST TRYING TO WALK! In other words, tons of ACTUAL EXPERIENCE first; the discussion can come later.)

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Author:	EdLee [ Tue Oct 09, 2012 12:13 pm ]
Post subject:
Peter, Falcord wrote: Spend that time playing more and more games instead. I was going to ask a question before I went to sleep last night, and Falcord beat me to it. But I'll ask anyway: do you have a rough count how many games you have played (finished) so far? More than 50? More than 100? PeterPeter wrote: Ideally I want to find my biggest mistake in each game, then fix it in my mind so I do not repeat it. Yes, and there is a time and place for this. First, let's find out how many games you've played so far (total, since you discovered Go.)

Author:	PeterPeter [ Tue Oct 09, 2012 12:32 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: 9x9 game: where did I go wrong?
I have played about 60-70 on 9x9, and about 5 on 19x19.

Author:	xed_over [ Tue Oct 09, 2012 1:02 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: 9x9 game: where did I go wrong?
This thread is so sad to read... I understand Peter's frustration as a beginner... and everyone is trying to be helpful and offer hints -- but he keeps guessing the wrong answer (as he continues to do in his games) -- thus his requests for help. Sometimes, an outright answer (even if hidden) is better than hints. Peter, your best results are going to come from live "face to face" reviews where you can get some immediate feedback to your questions, and the reviewer can take control of the game and give concrete examples (rather than just hints). Not to discourage you from posting here -- please do continue. -- you probably should have turned the corner on the top (f7) to avoid the L shape. That way, regardless of which side white blocks, you can stretch out further in the other direction. -- same place (f7). turn the corner solidly to avoid the L shape. the 1-space jump created additional weaknesses and ultimately the bad L shape. its not actually necessary to keep all your groups connected. -- not necessary. that move doesn't help you. and as you discovered later, your corner was/is in serious danger. protect your corner first (such as connecting at g7 -- remove the cutting point) Hope this helps. play out these suggestions on a real board (or paper and coins -- whatever you have). try different things. I think it will help.

Author:	mitsun [ Tue Oct 09, 2012 5:32 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: 9x9 game: where did I go wrong?
PeterPeter wrote: Ideally I want to find my biggest mistake in each game, then fix it in my mind so I do not repeat it. In a lot of my games, the tactical error is obvious and I quickly move on. Other times (like this game) it is not obvious to me which single move lost the game ... That is a good study plan. In this game, the tactical error was move 26, which lost a large group of stones. Nothing else was close to this in importance. Learn to recognize and avoid this mistake (fatally filling in your own liberties) and you will have made good progress from this game.

Author:	Bill Spight [ Wed Oct 10, 2012 2:33 am ]
Post subject:	Re: 9x9 game: where did I go wrong?
PeterPeter wrote: Ideally I want to find my biggest mistake in each game, then fix it in my mind so I do not repeat it. In a lot of my games, the tactical error is obvious and I quickly move on. Other times (like this game) it is not obvious to me which single move lost the game Have no doubt. It was . Some comments.