Life In 19x19
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A long one!
http://www.lifein19x19.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=7101		 Page 1 of 1
Author:  Yukontodd [ Fri Nov 02, 2012 2:29 am ]
Post subject:  A long one!
I wonder if folks could have a look at this one for a couple of reasons. First, it was the longest game I've played in a very long time. Second, and most importantly, the few comments I did get on it from some friends who were watching, in the game kibitz and after the game, seemed to think that black had far the better of the opening, while I thought white had an advantage that kept snowballing from the tenth move on. Is my judgement in the opening really that bad?

I'm really most interested in the first 50 moves or so ... is white up from the beginning like I think, or did my opponent crumble from a superior position? White wins on time, but with a clearly won position.



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Author:  EdLee [ Fri Nov 02, 2012 2:59 am ]
Post subject: 
Yukontodd wrote:
is white up from the beginning like I think, or did my opponent crumble from a superior position?
Most of the time, games at these levels (including this one) are not decided in the opening.
After :b45:, and after :b51:, W's shapes were a disaster, W's situation was bad.
Author:  NoSkill [ Fri Nov 02, 2012 3:35 am ]
Post subject:  Re: A long one!
A few comments (Last comment is move 140 or something btw):



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Author:  Yukontodd [ Fri Nov 02, 2012 4:02 am ]
Post subject:  Re: A long one!
Thank you very much, both.

Thanks for taking the time to make some very helpful comments, NoSkill. It was good to see how to handle groups more calmly, and special fun to see how I could have built aji up before cutting at m15. I'll be reviewing your comments again, I think!
Author:  NoSkill [ Fri Nov 02, 2012 4:16 am ]
Post subject:  Re: A long one!
Yukontodd wrote:
Thank you very much, both.

Thanks for taking the time to make some very helpful comments, NoSkill. It was good to see how to handle groups more calmly, and special fun to see how I could have built aji up before cutting at m15. I'll be reviewing your comments again, I think!


No problem, glad I could help
Author:  golem7 [ Fri Nov 02, 2012 5:17 am ]
Post subject:  Re: A long one!
If you consider just the opening then white's shape is indeed very bad. your problems started at move 18 which is a bit heavy and got worse when you played tenuki at move 26. Your group on the left has no base, no shape and didn't even jump to the center. In that regard, I have to disagree with noskills comment on move 27: blacks group on the left is not weak! It can live anytime, can still run into the center and especially you have to consider the relativity of strength: as long as white is weak himself, he cannot attack black strongly. And in this position white is much weaker than black. You were lucky that your opponent didn't know how to attack more severely or your position could have been even worse.
The game flow changed in your favor from move 53 on. If black just answers at q17, it should become an easy win for b (disregarding kyu madness ;)). Instead b began playing very small and strange moves completely ignoring the right side. That eventually lead to a winning position for white.

But my money would be on black for sure until move 53.

To generate some general advice out of this: avoid making heavy groups with no shape. Even if they won't die they can be attacked in all kinds of ways (resulting in profit for your opponent) and will become a permanent headache for you (possibly even into endgame).
Author:  NoSkill [ Fri Nov 02, 2012 5:54 am ]
Post subject:  Re: A long one!
golem7 wrote:
If you consider just the opening then white's shape is indeed very bad. your problems started at move 18 which is a bit heavy and got worse when you played tenuki at move 26. Your group on the left has no base, no shape and didn't even jump to the center. In that regard, I have to disagree with noskills comment on move 27: blacks group on the left is not weak!

Just because white's group is weak doesn't mean blacks is not. As I said, black move 27 was bad because black and white are both weak, so if white splits the stones when black fixs his weak group, white can run with his and settle it while attacking. Basically black didn't attack white, so white can attack black. See my variation to see what I mean (the one where white jumps, not blocks)

golem7 wrote:
It can live anytime, can still run into the center and especially you have to consider the relativity of strength: as long as white is weak himself, he cannot attack black strongly.


Same is true for black.

golem7 wrote:
To generate some general advice out of this: avoid making heavy groups with no shape. Even if they won't die they can be attacked in all kinds of ways (resulting in profit for your opponent) and will become a permanent headache for you (possibly even into endgame).


I agree with this, if not the rest :D
Author:  golem7 [ Fri Nov 02, 2012 7:05 am ]
Post subject:  Re: A long one!
NoSkill wrote:
golem7 wrote:
If you consider just the opening then white's shape is indeed very bad. your problems started at move 18 which is a bit heavy and got worse when you played tenuki at move 26. Your group on the left has no base, no shape and didn't even jump to the center. In that regard, I have to disagree with noskills comment on move 27: blacks group on the left is not weak!

Just because white's group is weak doesn't mean blacks is not. As I said, black move 27 was bad because black and white are both weak, so if white splits the stones when black fixs his weak group, white can run with his and settle it while attacking. Basically black didn't attack white, so white can attack black. See my variation to see what I mean (the one where white jumps, not blocks)


Even if we consider your variation (I believe b can play more agressively), b can still make an easy position on the top while attacking white's n16 stone (with k16 for example). At the same time, w's left side group is still not ok (no eyeshape yet and behind enemy lines). Considering black's group I can only repeat myself: it is not weak. Actually I think it is already alive, or can you show me a killing variation (if we imagine b being cut off and! not defending)?

NoSkill wrote:
golem7 wrote:
It can live anytime, can still run into the center and especially you have to consider the relativity of strength: as long as white is weak himself, he cannot attack black strongly.


Same is true for black.


No, because black is not weak ;) Even if there were some clever variation that reduces b to one eye it would still require b to ignore being surrounded (unlikely). You can't just say both groups are weak when one of them has no base or shape whatsoever while the other one is probably already alive or at the very least one move away from it. There is a clear difference in strength there.

NoSkill wrote:
golem7 wrote:
To generate some general advice out of this: avoid making heavy groups with no shape. Even if they won't die they can be attacked in all kinds of ways (resulting in profit for your opponent) and will become a permanent headache for you (possibly even into endgame).


I agree with this, if not the rest :D


At least we agree on this ;)
Author:  NoSkill [ Fri Nov 02, 2012 7:10 am ]
Post subject:  Re: A long one!
What you say about black is what I think about white. White is running and will live in my variation. Black is running and the white wall is closer than blacks stones on the bottom left. Whites group could be attacked once black's group is safe, but whites group has it easier because the black stones arent positioned as well as whites wall.
Author:  xed_over [ Sat Nov 03, 2012 3:21 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: A long one!
NoSkill wrote:
A few comments (Last comment is move 140 or something btw):

NoSkill, I enjoyed reading your review of this game.
Author:  NoSkill [ Sat Nov 03, 2012 7:47 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: A long one!
xed_over wrote:
NoSkill wrote:
A few comments (Last comment is move 140 or something btw):

NoSkill, I enjoyed reading your review of this game.


Thanks for the feedback :D
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