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Author:

cherryhill [ Tue Jul 02, 2013 6:39 pm ]

Post subject:

these kind of games on tygem

so, i must have gotten better because usually i lose these games, but i won this one, woohoo!

but i must say, i get so uncomfortable when this "type" of game starts. i don't know how else to describe it besides, from my point of view, as being very aggressive and risky early. it's one of those games where i must assume there are ways to handle this type of approach otherwise this would be the standard approach. it feels really easy to make mistakes on my end in these kinds of games cause the moves feel so unfamiliar. i mean i feel so uncomfortable that i want to resign immediately because i just assume that, because of my lack of knowledge of how to play these games that i am just going to lose it anyway. moves like b17 and b105 were particularly concerning to me because i just didn't know what to do about them but i felt they needed immediate attention.

so, while not necessarily looking for comments on this particular game (though they would be appreciated! haha), i do wonder are there areas i can study that would help so that might not feel so uncomfortable when these games start? i have a year subscription to guo juan's school so i can study any area i need to. i feel like maybe i need to work on understanding attacking better... one area i know im weak at is HUGE mistakes mid-game where i just throw away 30 points regularly (as happened, i feel like twice in this game lol) but i kind of feel like that is not something i can work on specifically lol.

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Author:	billywoods [ Tue Jul 02, 2013 7:26 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: these kind of games on tygem
Move 6: arguably better to block in the other direction (facing your stone rather than your opponent's strong stone). Move 18: just connect. Black's stone is in trouble then. Move 25: do not allow this! If you were going to connect at move 24, you shouldn't have jumped. Moves 94, 96: why endanger your own group by pushing black towards it? And lots of misreading, for which I prescribe a heavy dose of tsumego.

Author:	EdLee [ Tue Jul 02, 2013 8:21 pm ]
Post subject:

Author:	cherryhill [ Tue Jul 02, 2013 9:08 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: these kind of games on tygem
when is it a bad habit to protect a cutting put w/ a tigers mouth like w82 and when is it something that makes good shape. is it a bad habit when you're close to the end of the board and good shape when it's elsewhere?

Author:	jts [ Tue Jul 02, 2013 10:30 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: these kind of games on tygem
cherryhill wrote: when is it a bad habit to protect a cutting put w/ a tigers mouth like w82 and when is it something that makes good shape. is it a bad habit when you're close to the end of the board and good shape when it's elsewhere? First, ask yourself where the black stones are. If you do the hanging connection, can B immediately put one of your stones in atari? If the answer is yes, he can put a stone in atari, do you plan on making a ko (replying to T17 at T16)? If he can put a stone in atari and you plan on connecting instead of making a ko, does the exchange (in effect) of T17 for S15 benefit you, or him? (Does S15 make eyes, does it make a connection, does it help you extend farther, does it damage a black stone, or otherwise serve two functions at once?) If cannot immediately put one of your stones in atari, then you ask similar questions, but about the various peeps that B has against the hanging connection. For example, here is a common corner sequence where both the hanging connection and the tight connection are fine. Note that B has no atari against regardless of how W connects. Click Here To Show Diagram Code `[go]$$W $$ +-------------------------- $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . . $$ \| . . . 4 2 3 . T . . 7 . . $$ \| . . X , 1 . 5 . . , . . . $$ \| . . . . . T . . . . . . . $$ \| . . 6 . . . . . . . . . . $$ \| . . . . . . . . . . . . .[/go]`

Author: EdLee [ Tue Jul 02, 2013 10:48 pm ]

Post subject:

cherryhill, good question. If you have a physical Go set, I encourage you to play out the following variations.

Here's one result with the tiger's mouth :w1:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W $$--------------------- $$. . . . . . . . . . | $$. . . X X X . . X . | $$. . . O O O X X O 2 | $$, . . . . . O O 3 . | $$. . . . . . . . 1 . | $$. . . . . . . . . . | $$. . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

In comparison, if you connect directly with :w1:

, and B still plays the same move :b2:

, are you going to put :w3:

at (a) now ?

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$W $$--------------------- $$. . . . . . . . . . | $$. . . X X X . . X . | $$. . . O O O X X O 2 | $$, . . . . . O O 1 . | $$. . . . . . . . a . | $$. . . . . . . . . . | $$. . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

If the board is quite open, like in the game, you would not play :w3:

at (a), because it is very slow.

However, in some other situations, it may be very important to have a :white:

at (a) --
for example, if W needs it to connect to friendly stones, or,
if W needs it to kill B, etc. So this depends on the rest of the board.

You have to decide case by case.

(In general, if you run into a move, like here -- to connect with :w1:

or to play
a tiger's mouth -- and you don't know the answer, that's a good sign --
it means this is an opportunity for growth. You then seek out the correct move.

It's much better to be uncertain about a move than to be 100% certain and be wrong. :mrgreen:

)

Author:	jts [ Wed Jul 03, 2013 8:57 am ]
Post subject:	Re: these kind of games on tygem
Ed, the question is not whether you would reply to at "a", but whether or not is a more valuable move than "a". Obviously is an endgame move so it would be lovely to reply with tenuki and take a bigger move elsewhere, but in fact B is unlikely to move there in your second diagram unless the life of his group is at stake (and even then, he would play one point above ) It would be a very unusual case where you would reply to at "a", but I can imagine many cases where the - "a" exchange favored W.

Author: mitsun [ Wed Jul 03, 2013 12:00 pm ]

Post subject: Re: these kind of games on tygem

cherryhill wrote:

When is it a bad habit to protect a cutting put w/ a tigers mouth like w82 and when is it something that makes good shape?

There is no easy answer for every situation -- Go is difficult. To determine the best choice in a given situation, try to imagine the continuation in either case. If either side has a sente continuation, try to imagine the result with those stones in place. Then evaluate the result. Let's go through that exercise in your example.

If W makes the hanging connection, it is likely that B will atari in sente and W will connect, giving the following result. You have to visualize this result before making either connection.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c result after hanging connection $$--------------------- $$. . . . . . . . . . | $$. . . X X X . . X . | $$. . . O O O X X O X | $$, . . . . . O O O . | $$. . . . . . . . O . | $$. . . . . . . . . . | $$. . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

What will happen if W makes the solid connection? Possibly both sides will play elsewhere for a while. However, if W later plays a hane, it threatens a very large capture, so B will likely defend. B has no similarly large threat, so it is unlikely he will play here first. So for purposes of evaluation, we assume that W will get the hane in sente, giving the following result. You have to visualize this result also before choosing either connection.

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c result after solid connection $$--------------------- $$. . . . . . . . X . | $$. . . X X X . . X O | $$. . . O O O X X O . | $$, . . . . . O O O . | $$. . . . . . . . . . | $$. . . . . . . . . . | $$. . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

Now for the hard part -- deciding which of these results is better. With no other nearby stones, the second result looks better for W, as B has a smaller territory and a less secure group, while an extra W stone at s15 would not be very useful.

You could construct a different example where such a W stone might be useful. Then the answer might be different:

Click Here To Show Diagram Code: [go]$$c W to play $$--------------------- $$. . . . . . . . . . | $$. . . X X X . . X . | $$. . . O O O X X O . | $$, . . . . . O O . . | $$. . . . . O . . . . | $$. . . . . . . X . . | $$. . . . . . X . . . | $$. . . . . . . . . . | $$. . . . . . . . . . | $$. . . . . . X . . . | $$. . . . . . . . . . |[/go]

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