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Center moyo vs. side territory
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Author:  Numsgil [ Sat Jun 19, 2010 11:28 pm ]
Post subject:  Center moyo vs. side territory


This is symptomatic of a lot of games I've been playing recently. I always end up in a position where I control most of the center and need to make massive center territory to win. I feel like if I could handle something like this game better I'd be much stronger.
Author:  Harleqin [ Sun Jun 20, 2010 2:56 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Center moyo vs. side territory
First of all, :b15: is not an overplay. It is simply an invasion.

The continuation is very good for White. :b29: and :b33: connecting two eyeless groups are worth a laugh.

:w38: at B4 would perhaps make things a bit easier for you, but :b45: must still defend the left group. White can kill this anytime before move 185.

:w60: should go to K4. Your two stones can then cleanly capture one or the other side, and the black group below cannot croach out.

:w84: is better at R11. You might feel uneasy about invasions, but it is difficult to restrain this stone with all stones around on the fourth line. Of course, killing the lower left is still the biggest move. You would still have miai of the invasion points on the right or the top.
Author:  Bill Spight [ Sun Jun 20, 2010 3:41 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Center moyo vs. side territory
Some comments. :)
No guarantee that the variations are correct. ;)
Author:  John Fairbairn [ Sun Jun 20, 2010 3:50 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Center moyo vs. side territory
Quote:
First of all, is not an overplay. It is simply an invasion.


Interesting, because, while it is of course an invasion, I think it is a gross overplay. Black is thin everywhere else yet charges into an area dominated by White, and has no nearby threats or aji he can use for sente or any connecting group to run to. Seems like the perfect definition of an overplay.

White's response was awful, however. The correct tactic to deal with invasion of a moyo is let the invader live small while enclosing him. The result in this case (e.g. starting with a shoulder hit against the invader) would be that White builds a thick wall around a two-eye group (though actually it might die in this case). That thickness then promises White lots of territory on the lower side and allows him easily to invade either of the thin Black positions on left and right.

Black 15 should limit himself to erasure.
Author:  Harleqin [ Sun Jun 20, 2010 4:58 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Center moyo vs. side territory
John, while I do agree with you in principle, I do not think that labelling it as a "clear overplay" helps a player at that level. I rather think that showing how to deal with it, like Bill did, and adding that it might therefore be an overplay is better.

I would say (exaggerating a bit) that the sentence "This is an overplay." by itself is almost always wrong. The right sentence is "This looks like an overplay, because I can now...".

Bear in mind that many astounding tesuji look like an overplay at first sight.

So, didactically, I believe in the order analysis -> conclusion. Letting the pupil scream "overplay" Magicwand-style and add even worse overplays trying to "punish" is not what I recommend.
Author:  John Fairbairn [ Sun Jun 20, 2010 5:42 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Center moyo vs. side territory
Quote:
John, while I do agree with you in principle, I do not think that labelling it as a "clear overplay" helps a player at that level. I rather think that showing how to deal with it, like Bill did, and adding that it might therefore be an overplay is better.


You are being twee and inaccurate. I did not say "clear overplay". I said "gross overplay". The poster himself called the move an overplay. I gave five or so reasons why it was an overplay. That many reasons makes it gross. I suggested how to deal with it. And you've apparently agreed with my analysis.

Plus, I don't think you mean "didactically". I think you mean "pedagogically". The former has patronising overtones. For my part, I am not being didactic. I spent my time trying to be helpful. I will desist in future.
Author:  Harleqin [ Sun Jun 20, 2010 6:42 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Center moyo vs. side territory
Sorry, John, it seems I gumped the gun there a bit. I am guilty of not reading your post carefully. I just wanted to make clear that the thinking order is first to analyze, then to find the best response, and only then conclude that the opponent's play was perhaps not good.

I often see players who think that their moyo is already their territory, and that any invasion must be an overplay. This is what I want to counteract when I say "it is not an overplay, but an invasion".

I will not give in to your moral extortion, though---if you want to abstain from further comment, I am the last to hinder you, even though I think that you have a lot of interesting things to contribute.
Author:  Magicwand [ Sun Jun 20, 2010 7:02 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Center moyo vs. side territory
gross overplay is correct!
end of discussion
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